Episode 0002: Cespedes Family BBQ

Transcript:

Kendall Guillemette (KG): Today on the show we have Jake Mintz and Jordan Shusterman who are baseball writers for Yahoo Sports. They also have a podcast called Baseball Bar-B-Cast also with Yahoo Sports.

I’ve known these guys for a little while and they were gracious enough to come on the show. we talk about the life of a baseball writer and how that has changed over their careers and in their lives. We also talk about humblebrags and who you talk to in the locker room and what that’s like. So check out the episode.

Let’s get to it.

Today we have the Cespedes Family BBQ guys Jake Mintz and Jordan Shusterman. Hello guys. Thanks for coming on. I when somebody asks you what you do, what do you tell them? What do you tell them that you do?

Jake Mintz (JM): Hi. Hi. Hi.

Jordan Shusterman (JS): Hi, Kendall.

JM: It’s changed a lot, I think. I’m Jake, by the way.

JS: Yeah, it has and it hasn’t, right? Jake is the other one. I am Jordan. If you are watching, maybe you already know that. If you’re listening, maybe you already know. It’s interesting. I think since, we’ll get into the fact that we’ve known Kendall for a long time, but in some ways we’re doing the same thing. In some ways it is very different and much more polished and organized. But as far as what we do, we both work for Yahoo Sports and we talk about baseball three times a week on our podcast and we write about baseball multiple times a week on YahooSports.com and that takes on many forms over the course of the season but that is I think the gist.

JM: I tell people that I am a baseball writer and podcaster. And then when they ask more questions…

KG: They ask more questions? Their eyes don’t just glaze?

JM: Often it depends on the person. You could tell actually right away whether a person is a ball-knower or ball-watcher by how their face contorts or not after that sentence. But I would say that that has changed. I used to just say that we did professional baseball tomfoolery and I think we do still do tomfoolery but I think tomfoolery takes up a lower percentage of what we do for a living, which is kind of nice.

KG: I definitely want to get into that that aspect of it. So you do this professionally now. Like Jordan said, we’ve known each other a little while. When you first started doing this, can you kind of take us back? First of all, maybe take us back to your friendship starting. I know the story. Many others I know you’ve talked about it a bunch, but maybe two of our four listeners don’t know that. When did your friendship start? How did it all come to be?

JS: Yeah, I mean, it did not appear likely, I would say. It was not trending towards a long-standing professional relationship, let alone a close personal one, because we grew up in the same area in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC, and we kind of knew each other through, through synagogue and just being in the same area, but not friends at all when we first knew about each other because we were kind of occupying a similar space in our small Jewish private schools social circles.

But eventually we come to high school, once we got a little bit older and baseball became really our respective passions and focuses that made us kind of stuck together because there wasn’t other people our age that were that interested in talking about baseball at the time. So that is how we started to accept that we should probably hang out. And then from there, it just became like, all right, well, we have all these ideas and we want to do more than just have conversations.

That didn’t mean that we were like, this is going to be a job. That’s how we started to form a website that, honestly, Kendall, you ultimately enabled. There’s a world where, if Kendall does not help us on the back end with our WordPress and hosting stuff and the podcast and all that stuff.

JM: We’re in jail.

JS: It’s just over. We don’t even come close to getting this off the ground. So it’s all your fault, man. We really appreciate it.

JM: Yeah. And I, I, I go ahead, Kendall, go ahead. You can respond to that accusation.

KG: I think I think you guys have always overstated that. You would have been successful no matter if you met me or not. However, it’s been fun to watch the progress, the growth that you both have gone through as time has gone on. It’s been super exciting to see that. Go ahead, Jake.

JM: You know, we never, I appreciate that, Jordan, you know, we never considered vis-a-vis Kendall helping us.

Maybe what he was doing for us was just like outrageously simple and easy for him. Like even though in our minds, like we didn’t know how to do any like backend website stuff, right? For Kendall, like it could have taken like, don’t know. Maybe it was really, really hard. Maybe it was like seven minutes and like a button we couldn’t find, but it didn’t, you know?

JS: Right. Of course. But it didn’t, it didn’t matter because it’s all relative, you know, it didn’t matter. It’s not like Kendall was, was lording over us and being like, listen, you can’t, he was at no point being like, you can’t do this without me. But it was, he was a friendly face who at least was friendly enough and generous enough to be like, hey, like these guys are trying to do something. I don’t know if it’s going to go anywhere, but they are at least—I apparently and as Jake maybe alludes to, this is not maybe a heavy lift for me to help them out. And so I guess I’ll do that. And again, we’re forever, forever grateful.

JM: I still don’t know how hard that is. You know, what Kendall does.

KG: Well, I will say it’s definitely part of my job. So I didn’t have to learn new things. However, it was one of those things where I saw I’ve been into baseball for a long time and saw you guys and was like these guys, I mean, you were what? Seventeen. Like 18, 17.

JS: 18 yeah Jake was

JM: I was 17.

I turned 17, in the beginning of freshman year of college, in the fall of 2013. Whereas Jordan is a little older and we, the space in between we call the Bellinger zone. Now, why?

KG: Why? Why Jake?

JM: Cause Cody Bellinger was born in that time. In between us.

JS: He’s born like exactly in between us in July of 95. But yeah, so we, right, as you mentioned, we were very, very young people. Yep, we were, we were.

KG: Like kids.

JM: Children, absolutely children.

KG: I remember you had a podcast and you were big on Twitter among baseball nerds, if I could say, you know, a growing following in that realm. And and so I just reached out and whatever we got to talking. And it was one of those things where it’s like I could see that other 18 year old people were not speaking about the sport or not speaking about things like that in the same way. And so I was like, there’s something about these guys, whatever it was. They’re like, I want to be super clear, not taking any credit. This is all you guys have worked so damn hard. And it’s something that I actually wanted to ask you guys. Like, I know that in the industry over the years, because it’s been, you said 2013, so it’s like 12 years. You guys have been in the game for a while. I’m sure that you have seen haters or people kind of like blowing you off or especially early in the early days where like you were 18 years old and doing this stuff.

JM: We were worth blowing off. To a certain extent, you know?

JS: Yeah.

KG: OK. OK. Well, but how did you handle that? Because you were putting yourselves out there doing this creative endeavor that was unique and interesting. And, you know, people, obviously a very large amount of people said, this is awesome.

JS: But wait, yeah, finish the question before I know. Yeah, because I just want to know.

KG: Other people wanted to check this out. I know that I’ve heard like just online and people talking shit basically. Has that affected you? Has that been any part of something that you’ve had to put guards up walls up? How’s that affected you at all?

JM: I’m really bad at it. I’m still really bad at it. Jordan knows that I’m really bad at it. And I, he’s better at it. And I think is able to maintain a healthier perspective on things. I still struggle with it like a lot where it’s, you know, I will not tweet out something I rarely tweet out things that I write now. And it’s a bad thing.

And it’s because I’m super self-conscious of the thing of like whatever it is I created, even if I worked hard on it. And so like, I don’t want people to see it, which is fricking bonkers because that is completely antithetical to the whole point of the job and like why we get paid. So like, that’s still, that’s not something I’ve solved at all. I think it’s something that’s gotten harder for me over time.

Because when we were 18 and 19 and 20 in college, was like middle fingers up, like, screw you, this doesn’t matter. Like we’re goofy. And now it’s like, this pays the bills. Like I have a reputation that I need to maintain, you know? So that’s just my own personal perspective with it.

JS: Well, it’s interesting because I don’t know if this is kind of what you meant to ask, Kendall, but like as you were setting that question up, it felt like you were kind of hinting at the road to get here from the standpoint of there was a time when people didn’t take us as seriously…

JM: Like people in the industry.

JS: …but now we’re established and we get to it as a job. And yeah, yeah. But the reality is like, I think Jake’s response was obviously also worthwhile perspective and insight. And still something that I deal with too in different ways, I think. And it even happens to me too, where it’s like sometimes it absolutely is true that like not everything we produce is like our favorite thing ever. And so we’re less likely to want to promote it. That happens to me also. But back to my, what I was getting at is just like the reality is we were very lucky along the way that it was so much overwhelming positive feedback and we were very fortunate that we didn’t really, know, I imagine there’s a lot of people who take more traditional paths in this industry that get stuffed over and over and over and over and over. And like that has not been our experience and we are super lucky for that to be the case, right? Like we’ve had all these opportunities opened up and like, yes, it’s because we’ve worked hard and we went places and we did it at an early age and we went on these road trips and all these things.

JM: Yeah.

JS: Something we didn’t earn it, like that kind of like adversity hasn’t really been there from that case. It’s what’s interesting is that now it’s more about, OK, cool. Now we’re here. We’re doing it for a living. How do we stay here? How do we feel like we still belong? How do we still feel like we are doing it better than other people or doing it or like providing worthwhile content and producing things at a level that we’re proud of? So that’s like a totally different challenge because…

Honestly, we’ve always just tried to be nice to as many people as possible. And I think that that’s served us well. And generally, we’ve we’ve cultivated enough friendships and relationships that like, we weren’t really seeing or receiving too much [negativity]. I mean, it happened occasionally along the way early on where it’s like, I remember like early days when we first got hired by MLB. Obviously, there’s a lot of people who’ve been like, “Yeah, awesome.” “That’s so cool.” And there’s some like, “why would they hire these guys?” “What did these people do to deserve this job?” “hy did they get to do that?” And I get it. I understand that perspective, too.

But for the most part, it’s kind of just how now it’s more of a challenge to make sure we feel like we’re doing it well.

JM: Well, and I look back on it and Jordan is right. We’ve always had this like no beef mentality of trying to treat people well. But I think that in the beginning, we lacked a certain perspective and insight into the way that this industry works. And I think that’s specifically true when it comes to like beat writers and Ken Rosenthal. Like, when you see how these people grind and the

passion, they put it in their craft. It makes it harder to like dunk on a typo, right? Or, you know, like, this tweet about this backup second baseman’s hamstring? Like I, it’s funny to laugh at that, but that person is doing their job well. And I think that we did not always treat that with a seriousness that it deserves.

No, it’s all still contrived fake sport for entertainment, right? But I think that having more empathy towards the jobs people do in the world and how our actions or what we tweet or what we say impacts those people, I think is something that has informed how we do our job way more over the last five years in a really positive way.

KG: Is that because of situations that you were in where you stepped in it and were like, oops, and kind of got your hand slapped? Or was it just like being around it, you kind of pick up on those things?

JM: Being around it. like it was one example, I have this vivid memory of our junior year of college, like right the beginning of second semester, like in the winter when MLB was like, we’ll hire you guys for the upcoming summer and you’re going to write some stuff after we got back from studying abroad And I tweeted like a screenshot of a like an alert from the MLB app that was like phrased in a goofy manner. And I made a tweet making fun of it. And I got a call from our gonna be boss. He was like, “you can’t do that.” Everyone here sees your tweets. The person who does these alerts like is a breathing human who writes these and don’t piss them off. And I just remember thinking that and be like, okay, like sure, I won’t do that anymore. And then we went to go work at MLB. We sat like two desks down and became friendly with the dude who was doing those alerts. And like, to me, that is a perfect moment. Now, it doesn’t mean you should never make fun of anybody ever, right? Like, we can all have a good time. But like that specific thing, I find that to be a very instructive example.

JS: Well, right. And now that applies to just like what we’re around all the time, which is just like other baseball writers, you know, not all of whom do a podcast, right?

JM: More and more than ever.

JS: Like they might have a different platform that they are used to working in more and more and more than ever, for sure. But, you know, we are still unique in like where our voices and words are most concentrated.

JS: I think, relative to the people that are normally at the ballpark. I think, and as we always say, like, think we also we think that that’s why what we do is good and why it’s better and different than what certainly a lot better and different than what we were doing originally 10 years ago, where it was like entirely subsisting on the combination of knowing stuff and being entertaining and funny. Now it’s at that point we could maybe entertain you, but we couldn’t necessarily inform you. That was not, yeah, now we can actually do both. It was certainly the goal to do both.

JM: Now I think we can. I think there are I says all the time that there are people in the industry who are more entertaining and there are people in the industry who are more informed. I think that is a fact. And I don’t think that there are many people in the middle of that Venn diagram as much as we are. Like one person who immediately comes to mind for me is this Foolish Baseball who we love and think is a star and adore for a million reasons. Even still, like, I take a lot of pride in that being a small number of people trying to do that very specific thing, right? It is digesting what is actually, or like taking what is actually happening, digesting it, regurgitating it in a form that is compelling enough to entertain and educate.

KG: I think that that is a huge part of it because obviously early days you were goofy. You guys were just kind of doing funny, silly tweets and things on your podcast, but it was clear to me for sure. You guys know baseball and you like even back then grind it, grind it, ground grinded it. Like hard, you guys worked.

JM: Like I’m holding the 2017 Baseball Prospectus Annual right? Like we were dorking out right away.

KG: There we go.

And working hard, traveling and all these types of things. And so it’s always interesting because, yes, there was the silliness and the ridiculous things that you did and talked about. Underlying all of that was this knowledge of baseball. This, you know, there is a—scholarship might be a little bit too strong…

JM: Way too strong.

KG: …but like around knowing the game. And that always came through to me. So I totally agree that that Venn diagram that you talked about, Jake, is something that that is very present and interesting. Creatively, as you guys, you guys have been a creative partnership for 12 years or whatever it is. How do you navigate that? from a creative standpoint? And then how has that changed over time?

JM: Hmm.

JS: Yeah, I mean, I think that… Our jobs have demanded it to change. Our lives have demanded it to change. There’s a big difference between sitting next to each other at a desk every day, which was the case for really only a year and a half. I mean, 2019, it kind of made up for it because we were together and creating a show together, sort of.

Whatever, so we can say two and a half years where it was just like regularly in the same place all the time. And like most of the things we were working on, I mean for early time at MLB did include some just like us kind of feeding the beast and doing blog posts like on our own, but a lot of it was overlap, right? A lot of it was doing stuff together, video stuff and yeah.

JM: Two and a half years. Every day.

One of the reasons that we started like looking for other stuff was because we wanted to maintain that. And like we got a sense that in that specific context at that place in that time, they were less interested in us as a tandem than we wanted to be. I think.

JS: Which is, which is funny in retrospect because ultimately what the reason why that really didn’t work is because they didn’t want us to podcast. So like, obviously where we’ve landed now, which has become a much more realistic arrangement for us as adult people who are living very different lives beyond work is the podcast is still as it was in the beginning, like what keeps us together and keeps us making stuff together. And that is still 95% of what we are working on together because we’re in different places and because we have, especially over the last three years since we’ve become members of the BBWAA and get to go to the ballpark and pursue different stories. Obviously we’re talking about the stories that we’re working on often all the time, but those are often completely separate pursuits. We’re not doing that much co-by-lining and whatnot.

And that’s fine because it’s not like we’re not working together because we’re podcasting together three times a week. And so that, that is the vessel for us to do that.

JM: I, you know, if we were both hermits, And like didn’t have wives and lives. The show is better when we do it in person, like definitively in my opinion…

JS: Sure.

JM: …I still think 97% of shows that we’re doing are like this over the internet. And I still think it’s very good and a good product that I’m proud of. And I still think that when we are in the same place, the show is better…

KG: Why? What part of it?

JM: WHY? because we we we can find the pockets in each other’s stuff, like in each other’s cadence. And that’s what makes I think we do a lot of things well. I like to think that I think that’s one of the best things. The most unique things is how long we’ve been working together. I know where Jordan’s going. He knows where I’m going. I know like where to hop in, I know where not to hop in. And it’s so much harder to do that over the internet because there is either a delay slightly or you don’t read the body language right. Like there are reasons for that, right? And so like when we get to do shows in person, whether that’s I visit Jordan in Ohio or he visits me wherever I, you know, now I’m in DC or we’re at All-Star or we’re at the World Series. Like I just think those shows are better. And still, like Jordan said, our lives are in a point now where we are both living in cities primarily because the people that we love the most in the world, are engaging in pursuits at various universities that are in a place. And so it’s like, that’s the reality of our lives and we wouldn’t change that for anything and we’re happy and we’re fulfilled. But there’s definitely a part of me that’s like, man, like if I lived in, you know, exurban, Ohio, 25 minutes from Jordan. And we had this little tiny barn of an office, like the pod would cook. But then it’s like, I’m like, I don’t, but I don’t want to do that. And Jordan is only where I live, right? Like it’s, that’s why it’s great.

JS: Yeah, but I mean, I. Again, like I agree, you know, of course, and I wouldn’t want like that’s the thing. So the fact that we’ve gotten to and again, if we open it back up to like, yeah, I obviously agree that the pod’s better in person, too. But like to be able to still do this job and do so many other parts of this job, which involves going to ballparks wherever we happen to live is has been really fun. Like, even though that has been like a very separate venture often. And I think that it’s important and obviously fortunate that we’ve been able to show multiple employers that we can provide different things through that avenue in addition to the podcast.

JM: So like a super weird example of this, this year when I visited Jordan…

Trea Turner just fouled a ball off his own face, like straight into his own face. Wow, I’ve never seen that before.

…When I went and visited Jordan in person in Cleveland this year and I had never been to like around that space and Jordan’s like, what’s up Dave and Rick and Julia? And I’m like, who are these people? It was like meeting someone’s camp friends. And then the flip side of that, Jordan, was like last October, the first, correct me if I’m wrong, the first time you were ever in the Yankees locker room was after they lost game five.

JS: Yes. Or one of the first times. I don’t know if that was number one, but it was definitely one of the first. Which is like, that’s where Jake had spent like, they’d been there a hundred times for the previous three.

JM: Yeah. But that was like, I was there. Yeah. And so that was weird. Those each of those experiences, right? You have this other life, you know.

KG: Right. How often do you guys get to the ballpark? Like on a weekly basis, monthly basis?

JM: Man, a ton.

JS: I mean, well, yeah, well, it’s obviously different. Well, Jake’s still kind of figuring out his.

JM: It’s different for a bunch of reasons, right? So like I moved to DC two weeks ago. So my cadence is not totally figured out yet. In New York, I had two teams. And with the way that the schedule works out is that the Mets and Yankees are almost never ever home at the same time. This week, I think is actually the only time all season they’re both playing home games at same time. And so what that means is 13 out of 14 days, there’s a game. And so I could go 13 or 14 days if I wanted to. But like I said before, sometimes it makes more sense for us to watch 11 games on our couch while eating dinner with the person we love. And, you know, following that, then it is sitting in the press box watching one game. That’s just the reality of our job for where we’re at right now. I also think it’s super valuable to go and watch a full game in person, as often as possible. So I would say in New York, my cadence, the rule I had for myself was if I’m home for a three game set, one of the three days I go and I stay for the game and I do post game. One of the days I go and do pregame and I leave at 6:30 for first pitch. And one day I don’t go and I watch games at home. Like that is to me the ideal breakdown, the ideal cadence of it.

JS: I’d say it’s pretty similar for me, obviously, only having one team there, you just have longer stretches where you don’t have anyone to go to, which is fine. So it’s just about making the most of the time. And sometimes you get way more than you expect. And sometimes you get nothing. it is what it is. You definitely pick your spots for the kinds of games that you use.

JM: Mm-hmm.

JS: Occasionally something falls in your lap or like I have like a Max Scherzer start earlier this season, which I felt like was like, that’s something that I want to lock in on and know that that’s a story that I want to tell. So we’ll see, sometimes those become apparent. I think for Jake, was a little it’s definitely a different assignment for Jake. Now, this also applies because of how our jobs work and needing to this is something that I think Jake will now learn more as he is not around, you know.

JS: Two teams that matter the most because generally there’s usually not going to be a bad, not that the game can’t suck, like Mets and Yankees always matter. And so there’s just a higher likelihood.

JM: Every game and this is what I’ve already felt like I’ve been here two weeks. I haven’t even done the drive to Baltimore yet because they were playing the A’s and then I was out of town and from two o’clock when I get to the yard until seven, the setup here is better for a million reasons, right? Because the Yankees, first of all, are the most rewarding and infuriating team to cover. It is an iron curtain. There’s a million people in there. It feels like it’s a whole different sport because of how much people care. And that’s fulfilling and horrifying and exhausting at the same time.

JS: Yes.

JM: Like when you go to the Yankees for like a week and you get a good story out of it, it’s the best. But like going there is like pulling teeth. So from two to seven, my life now is better. From a work perspective, the second the game starts, brother, brother, I watched all of a Nat’s A’s game last week. You know?

JS: Yeah. You got a tough, you got a real tough intro. mean, the Nats are a problem in and of themselves, but yeah.

JM: I had the brew crew. That was good. But then like Nats vs A’s, was the Shea Langeliers three homer game. It’s not even the game. It’s just the first pitch and there’s just no zest in the yard because the team’s not good. And so with Yankees this year. Oh my God. First pitch every day. It’s like, you don’t need a coffee, right? That’s enough. And whereas Jordan like, Cleveland is such a fascinating example because it’s like a Dominican Winter League team. Feels like for Jordan it ebbs and flows by the week, right? Like when we’re covering LIDOM and Cincy too.

JS: Dude, it was true in Cincinnati, too, where like when I first moved there in 2022, there were were 100 losses like as bleak as could be like this is so depressing. And then they start winning in 2023. Elly De La Cruz comes up and it’s like this is so much fun. I want to be here all the time. And Cleveland. Yeah, it’s absolutely fluctuating like that. I mean, earlier this season it could. And obviously last year was unbelievable being around them. I mean, that was that was so much fun to watch the run that they were on. And Cleveland’s obviously an awesome sports town, but.

This year it’s been much more and even a little bit more fun recently, it does depend a lot. Obviously, but to your point, Jake, right, it’s pros and cons because the stress and the ease of just navigating and moving around pregame for places that aren’t New York and LA, it’s just so much easier to kind of accomplish some of those goals.

JM: Yeah. But it’s also like, what are you getting out of going to the yard for us? So like today is a great example for me personally. Okay. So, I found out or I realized that the Phillies vs. Nats was a four game and not a three game set, today. At noon, I was literally on my bike doing 30 miles on my bike, looked and saw a text from someone that was like, “Hey, you come into the yard tonight?” I was like, “What?”

And then I realized it was a four game set. Okay. So I’m like, you know, I was, I’m going to cook dinner with my wife. I’m doing this thing tonight with you, Kendall. What a joy. What an honor to get to talk to you. And so I’m like, I’m not going to stay for the game, but you know, I’ll go do pregame. So I go over there for an hour and a half, two hours. I don’t talk to really a single player in the Phillies clubhouse. Like I say hello to some people I’m waiting for whatever. And I’m like, well, that was a waste of time. I told Kyle Schwarber this is a great thing, Jordan, where you’re like, “Can I get you for five minutes tomorrow?” and you throw it in their head and then tomorrow you’re good, right? It’s like, I…

JS: Because it’s such a good move because it’s like telling a player that you don’t need them right now, that’s what they want to hear.

JM: They’re amped about it.

JS: They’re like, awesome, you don’t need anything right now?

JM: And Kyle’s the best, Kyle’s the best. was like, and also like weird travel day for the Phillies. They, dude, you know, you see this, they, their flight from Cinci to DC got banged last night on the tarmac. They slept in Cinci last night, flew to DC this morning.

JS: No, I didn’t see that. Ouch, I did not see.

JM: And so like, it was groggy. But then on my way out, I’m walking down the tunnel and it’s just me and Bryce and like, Bryce is walking towards me and there’s just two of us. Bryce is like, what’s up dude? What are you doing in DC? And I’m like, yeah, just moved. And then I had a five, six minute conversation with Bryce about living in DC and parenthood and how the game has changed over the last six years, none of which was on the record. And it made like going to the yard. Like my wife’s like, how’s the yard? I like, I recorded nothing. And I had a six minute off the record human being conversation with Bryce Harper. Big win!

JS: Thumbs up.

JM: This is huge W, right? And that’s it. It’s so weird how that works because like on my way out, I’m like, well, that was a waste of a day and then boom, right? And it’s just, you never know what you’re going to see when you go to the ball yard every day, you never know what you’re going to see.

KG: That’s awesome.

JS: And it’s cool, to Jake’s point, though, it is that applies now, even where a lot of times we are leaving before a game starts. You have a plan, I’m going to try to talk to that person. And then you end up getting something completely different.

JM: Also, just not to sound like a schmuck, I understand that I did sneaky humble brag that I was walking down a hallway and Bryce Harper was like, what’s up, dude? You know, like, I understand that that, I understand how that comes across and I apologize. That is, well, okay.

KG: What and you call them just Bryce. So, you know.

JM: You know, I’m not talking about…

JS: That was… I would say no, no, I actually actually agree with Kendall. I actually agree with Kendall. I think that was the most like, no…

KG: I knew who you meant. I knew who you meant. Yeah.

JM: That’s the thing. You know I’m not talking about Brice Turang

JS: No, but you would have just said, you would have said Bryce Harper. You would have said, you would have gave full name. You would have said full name. I’m not saying people would be confused.

KG: Professionally, you would have.

JM: No way! Incorrect!

JS: If I was to say, this is actually a good perspective. I’m saying if we’re assessing, if we’re grading, if we’re grading, if we are going to assess the humble bragging, I think Kendall’s making a good point. I’m not saying that you didn’t know who he was talking about. I’m just saying once we’re going down that path, I think Kendall is.

JM: I understand. Yeah, there was a lot of context clues.

KG: There were a lot of, that is very true. There were a lot of context clues. Phillies, Bryce.

JM: Bryce Aaron Max Harper was walking towards me.

JS: Yeah, this is less about the confusion of who we’re talking about. It’s more of the casual image.

JM: No, I needed to recognize my own humble brag because I do think it is a relatively relevant point where it’s like we’re now in this place. Do I think Bryce Harper knows my name?

No, I do not. I don’t think he knows my name.

He knows my face. That goes around. Like, and you have that with people, like it’s nuts. Like that has changed.

JS: Recognizes your face enough. It’s like that guy’s around. Yeah, that guy’s around. Totally. That’s fine.

KG: That’s super interesting because you have these relationships with these people. Like if you’re going to, however many games a week, you just kind of by proximity have these relationships. Hey, how’s it going? What’s going on? Whatever. And it’s like, that’s. Not normal, you know what I mean? Like, but it is, it’s so normal for you guys and it has been like you guys. I remember early, early on, like.

JM: Yes. Yeah.

KG: You were in the minor leagues and you were like, was it Ozzie Albies that you did Whiffleball with or something like that?

JM: Devers.

JS: We’ve done… Yes, Devers.

KG: This was a million years ago, but, oh, it was the Devers? Okay, yeah. And so it’s like…

JM: But the Albies, dude, remember the Albies thing in the minors? Ugh.

JS: The obvious one, we haven’t, that’s not a story. That’s still one of the weirdest things. But the Devers, Devers is better example. So don’t interrupt Kendall. Keep going. Yeah.

JM: Sorry, go ahead.

KG: Yeah, now obviously, it was when he was in what like Single A, Double A at that point?

JS: Yeah, it was High A.

JM: High A.

KG: High A Yeah. and so you guys have been establishing relationships. And I think one thing that’s super interesting is for a lot of those guys, you are the same age. Like as you were talking to them, they were your peers. They were like, hey, you were living the same life, not really that you weren’t professional ball players but like you’re very much peers. And now I don’t know how old you guys are, like 70, 30, guys are 30.

JM: I turned 30 in a month. Turning 30.

KG: Happy birthday, guys. So now, if you are a peer, it would be with a Bryce Harper versus a, I don’t, whoever a super young guy is.

JM: Yeah.

JS: Well…

JM: Who’s first player that Jordan that’s made you feel old? Big leaguer?

JS: I mean…

JM: Doing the futures game now is like, that’s a different thing.

JS: …big leaguer, I mean like. Like Futures again… obviously, like the draft, like, oh my God, like going and talking to high school kids, it’s just like, oh my goodness. But no, I mean, I know what you’re getting at. I mean, to me, the point that I would just bring up that you made me think of when you bring up the Devers example is again, it was just still a very different thing that we were doing. But the other thing that’s different is just like, okay, yeah, we’re used to that now.

But It’s also because, you know, we’re around a lot and have been doing it for long enough that maybe we’ve seen a guy at the All-Star game or in the playoffs enough times, not just the people in New York that we run into, but also like that is a normal thing for the beat writers. Right. And like you see that for the people that just like have those very casual relationships, even if it is entirely just like a professional back and forth.

Obviously we still try to have some balance of, we still feel like we’re pretty good at having a balance of a little bit more of a deeper rapport with certain players than others. But for the most part, we’re still kind of in the same spaces and it’s still more about how you’re communicating the kinds of questions you’re asking, how long you’ve known the guy that goes a long way. Because obviously a lot of the people that we have met for the first time in the last couple of years, whether they’re five years younger than us, five years older than us for the same age, don’t necessarily have that same level of connection that for someone like Rhys Hoskins or whoever that we’ve known for 10 years now.

JM: Vinny.

JS: Yeah, Vinny, right?

JM: Now that I’m in my brain, the first player that made me feel really, old was Misiorowski at the All-Star game this year. Because he was just like talking to me, was like, you’re a child. You are a baby deer. Right? Like I, you know what it was? It’s like we were more comfortable in that space than he was.

JS: yeah, yeah, that’s a funny one.

JM: By a mile right? It’s like, I’m interviewing you and like, he’s freaking out.

KG: That’s crazy. That’s so interesting. Like in your brain, like you grew up baseball fans, like when you started this, it was just like, holy shit, like I love it. I’m into it. I know all the guys and all the stats and all this stuff. And now it’s like you’re walking down the hall and Bryce Harper says, hey, what’s up?

JM: Bryce, Bryce.

JS: Mr. Harper.

KG: I’m sorry. Bryce says, hey man, what’s up?

Imagine if you were when you were 18 years old, if you were put in that exact situation, like what would like what would your brain do?

JM: Yeah.

JS: 100%.

JM: So, he’s even, I would say, in a very unique category of players where it’s like.

JS: Dude, and like, this is a good, I’m glad you mentioned him and we can zoom in on Bryce here too, because I mean, yeah, he’s like the reason I like started loving baseball again. I mean, like a hundred percent. I mean even before he’s even on the Nationals and I’m going to watch him in Hagerstown and, you know, sneaking into the minor league stadium to get a picture with him, like, he’s a big deal, right?

Now Jake obviously has been around him a lot more in Philly. So he’s interviewed him a bunch of times and there’s more rapport. But like I interviewed him one-on-one for the first time earlier this season. And it was the easiest thing because Bryce, as Jake will probably talk about, is very accessible.

JM: Best superstar. Best superstar.

JS: He’s he’s fantastic. But even after that, and that was a very normal five minute conversation about not anything that exciting. And I was just like, that was one of the few moments. So we’re just like, yeah, he’s that guy is he’s the guy.

JM: That’s the guy, dude. Like,

KG: That’s the guy, Yeah.

JS: That’s the dude.

JM: That is the guy. For us, that is the guy.

JS: So it’s true. He absolutely is the guy. And so we’ve gotten to talk about him a lot. And we’ve seen him win the Home Run Derby and Jake’s seen him hit these huge homers in the playoffs. And, know, he’s we’ve watched this whole career. But to that point, like, there’s not that many not that we don’t appreciate it, but there’s there aren’t that many guys that, like, we talk to and we leave and then we’re like, my God, he’s that’s still on the shortlist, even if it is, you know, even if we are more used to having those conversations. So it’s not that we lose perspective, but it does become more normal for most of the people that were.

JM: Yeah. And he. Yeah, and a lot of it is, okay, so like, here’s an example. I noticed in the clubhouse today, like Bryce was FaceTiming his kids, right? He’s on, they have a three city road trip right now, so like he hasn’t seen his kids in a while. So it’s like, that’s just the, that’s a guy. This is the dude calling his kids and then when you see them in these more relaxed settings, it humanizes them and almost de-emphasizes this air of mystique about them that I think is really a good thing and important for our sport, for fans to maintain that. Bryce Harper is this pulsating orb of baseball majesty. Yes, that is great. But when we’re there all the time now, that goes away.

A little bit, but it doesn’t take away that Bryce Harper is a special character in this sport who is capable of special things.

JS: But it is funny because to your point, now, Bryce is unique because he will just be sitting in his locker looking at his phone in a way that like, know, Ohtani and Judge. Like there are levels of stars that are much better at just essentially never being in the clubhouse. And so you never see them in like this relaxed space. Jake can obviously speak better to this about the teams in New York, but…

JM: To Judge in like Soto.

JS: But Judge or Soto and you know, but, no, I think it’s a great point. I think just like walking into a clubhouse and even I had this early season with Altuve, right? You know, just watching Altuve play ping pong with Bryan Abreu for 10 minutes. It’s so simple and it doesn’t matter at all. And it’s not surprising and it’s not a story and it’s not worth writing about, but it’s just like, damn, like Jose Altuve, man, like that dude.

He’s so important for so many reasons to so many people to so many like and he’s just in here hanging out

JM: You know, it was such an important moment. I know Kendall hasn’t talked in like 25 minutes and I’ll kick it back to you, host.

KG: Good man, this is great.

JM: The key moment, Jordan, and we joke about this moment all the time, was Yu Darvish in a closet. Like Yu Darvish in a closet. Like that.

JS: Well, that’s a different, yeah.

JM: That was it, man. It’s a slightly different thing.

KG: Yeah, give the backstory.

JM: So quick backstory. We’re on a road trip. 2014, we’re driving from DC to Houston and back. in Northwest Arkansas. The visiting team would have been the Rangers, so that would have been Frisco.

JS: Yeah, Frisco.

JM: And Yu Darvish which was making a rehab start, I believe his first rehab start. We’re one of his first ones coming away from TJ, I believe. And I think…

JS: I just told the story recently so I was looking at the box score. 2016.

JM: And, you know, Japan is there in freaking Fayetteville, Arkansas, or Springdale or whatever, right? It’s like 30 Japanese media members. Because at the time it was like, Ichiro is like getting old. I guess Ichiro still playing and Darvish playing at the time. Those are the guys. And so after he throws and we’re in the press box and they’re like…

“Yu Darvish will be available downstairs in the media room.”

We’re like, the media room? What media room is there in North West Arkansas? We go down and the media room is just the closet where they keep all of the minor league like bric-a-brac, whether it’s like inflatable horse or enormous bowling pin or whatever the hell, right? And so we’re in there and all these very serious professional, respected Japanese media members are like asking questions. And I assume that like someone from the Fort Worth Star Telegram is there or whatever. And we’re laughing so hard. And Jordan like keeps having like hit me. He’s like, stop it. I’m like, but there’s you know, spinny bat over there. And like to me, was like, these are humans that are operating in the same spaces to a certain extent. Jordan, you made a face just now. Any reason why?

KG: Yeah, what happened there?

JS: Well, I just pulled out the box again. So this is not when he was, because this is 2016, not when he was coming back from TJ but I guess he just had some injuries early in the season. Ryan O’Hearn was batting clean up in this game. Before he was even like a terrible big leaguer with the Royals for five years before becoming an all-star with the Orioles. But yes, he struck out against Yu Darvish. So now he’s teammates…

JM: My apologies. Ugh. Go Royals.

JS: …with Yu Darvish on the Padres. So there you go. Some weird, I wonder, this is actually fun. Next time we see Ryan O’Hearn if we see them, let’s see if he remembers facing Yu Darvish. I’m sure he’s faced him since then, but this is when he was, you know, coming up and he faced, think they actually faced him again the next week.

JM: I’ll see.

JS: So anyway, we’re going off track, but I do think like the big picture thing is just like what the access gives us in addition to just like the ability to do our jobs is the very simple, basic, behind the scenes moments where you’re just like, yeah, like these are just guys. They’re really just people and it’s just like, they’re really good at baseball, but like they’re just sitting in there on their phones. They’re in there playing Sudoku, just passing the time. they’re, you know, it’s…

KG: Right.

JM: They’re just dummies like us.

Here’s an example.

Can I tell a quick example? Today, two players who will not be named for reasons that will become obvious. Okay. They’re doing the crossword. One guy looks over the other and goes, what is satiated? And the other guy goes, do you mean satiated? And he’s like, yeah. And the other guy’s like, like satisfied. It’s like the same root, like sated, like say the guy’s like, nah…

JS: Dude, watching big leaguers do the crossword, I’m not one to judge because I don’t do crosswords no matter what, I suck at it too. But it’s so awesome because it’s like….

JM: I could do the Wednesday when I’m cooking.

JS: …it’s like they don’t even seem to really be enjoying it that much. But they’re just like, it’s here, so like I’m gonna try.

JM: Like they could put a DMV form instead.

JS: It’s like, it’s something to fill out.

KG: Yeah, so guys just gonna pick it up and be like, I guess.

JS: Dude, you put it in the same little holder as the Sudoku and the crossword, they might just start filling it out.

KG: So let me zoom out just a little bit because what we were just talking about is interesting to me because I think we’ve all seen and heard at the ballpark people yelling, heckling, all of these things. Clearly, they do not see these players as human beings. What as baseball fans and then as also as baseball writers, what is there to do to humanize and you can’t teach empathy in that way to the general public. Unfortunately, I wish you could. But what could be done in your mind? Not necessarily from you, but just in the world, in the sport, whatever to build that. Because I think that like everybody’s just trying to put food on their plate. Some guys do that by hitting a ball, and some guys do that by picking up garbage.

JM: Yeah. I think it’s tough, right? Because, OK, how are these people different than us, regular normies? The fundamental thing is just a wealth disparity, right? Jordan and I are happy and fulfilled from a financial standpoint. It is a different hemisphere. I don’t own a watch, right? These guys have watches that are like 25x Jordan’s mortgage and they don’t blink. Not some guys right back end of the roster relievers, call ups, you know guys making the minimum with not Big League full like I understand that I’m just saying like generally right. That’s the fundamental difference and in terms of humanizing them I think it’s it’s probably. It’s better and worse now like gambling is its own bag of worms and I actually think that if you took gambling out of it which you can’t, that fans are more sympathetic towards ballplayers than they’ve ever been before. Right. I do think that.

KG: Interesting. Why do you think that? Like, like what makes you feel that way?

JM: I think there’s just more perspective. I think fans are smarter than they’ve ever been. I think the information is better. I think we see more of these people publicly behind the scenes than we ever have before because of social media. And I just… Like the era of…

KG: Yeah, that makes sense.

JM: Can you imagine the things that fans were screaming at players in like 1986 or whatever? Like it must have been just unhinged, outrageous. Maybe some of that is a societal trend, right? But like booing, goofy, we don’t boo, like we’ve never booed. I don’t know if I’ve ever booed. Maybe in jest at a pickoff, but like, you know, like booing a human that didn’t do a crime is weird to me.

I can’t wrap my head around that. But I do think that gambling, adding that into the equation just creates a whole other level of stuff where it’s like, if fans have a financial, vested financial interest in the way someone is doing at work, you know, it just creates all these bizarre kind of yucky incentives.

JS: Yeah, I mean, I agree with most of that. I guess I guess this is hard because the people that we’re talking about trying to reach are probably not listening to our podcast. So like the insight that doesn’t mean that like we’re not still enhancing the average fan that it was not likely to be screaming at ballplayers that like again, like we still there’s still value there. But in terms of changing minds and changing perspectives.

It’s a great question because in some ways, yeah, it does feel like I some of Jake’s points are spot on. Yeah, I just, I don’t know. because it’s like, how do you reach those? What is, like, what is the information that that genre of person would need to get to like meaningfully change your perspective? I don’t know.

JM: You should ask it to like drive time radio like that.

KG: Yeah, for sure.

JM: Right, it’s like if someone, no one’s listening to our podcast and then sending us an email being like, I used to tell players to jump off a bridge and then listening to you guys, I don’t do that anymore.

KG: No, just, I see that they’re just human beings. Yeah, because I think even like if you think about it, like you were talking about Bryce Harper FaceTiming his kids or whatever. If somebody who is screaming at Bryce Harper because he struck out or something like that, like him talking to his kids on FaceTime, it’s not going to change that for that person. So.

JM: Sure. But like, but let me just be clear with something. If Bryce Harper strikes out with, okay, so example, Trea Turner just struck out with a tying run on third to end the Nats Phillies game. Nats fans are a slightly odd example. Let’s say that they lost to a good Nats team, right? And Trea Turner’s right by the dugout and some Nats fan goes, “you suck, Trea” Like, that’s fine with me. That’s part of the game. That’s why you get paid.

There’s a line there. Like you can boo you, but you’re a bum. There’s a, there’s a line. And like, I do think that this is part of, this is a whole different thing. Like the Astros scandal, I think is awesome. I think like booing the Astros and is just the, it’s hilarious to me because it’s like the stakes are so low relatively, like no one did crimes. There, the who’s a victim like Mike Bolsinger right?

JS: Well, well, it depends what you define as victim.

JM: The Yankees fans. You get my point. You get my point. Like Yu Darvish maybe. like on this, sure. On the scale of sporting scandals,

I mean, it is just, it’s about, it’s perfect. It’s perfect. And so like when Correa gets booed in the Bronx, it’s like, that’s great theater. That’s good stuff.

JS: I mean, sure, sure, sure. It’s easier to laugh about 100%, 100%.

KG: There’s some comedy in it. Yeah.

JS: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

KG: There’s something that I wanted to ask about. It’s more along like baseball writing around unwritten rules of the clubhouse, the things that you pick up on or the press box or how do you like? Like you said, you did not go the traditional route, so you guys are coming into this profession, which is a profession and it’s a longstanding profession and people have taken it seriously for very long time, probably over 100 years, certainly. And so how do you learn how to carry yourselves in a press box that is different than in a minor league closet, slapping each other because you’re laughing at the ridiculous situation to taking something very serious and those types of things. Like what was that process like? What have you learned? How have you learned it?

JS: Yeah, that’s a good question. think that like, obviously another thing that just we had an advantage on, it definitely helped that even though we’ve only been in the BBWAA for three years and I kept going to the ballpark regularly for three, four years, we’ve been doing it for long enough before that like we pretty much have friendly faces on every beat and in every press box. So, there’s not too many situations where we’re kind of going in as like total outsiders.

JM: Yeah.

JS: That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And occasionally, I have an experience on the road where, or at a ballpark we’re not normally at, where it feels a little bit like that. And you want to make sure that you’re not stepping out of line.

KG: What would stepping out of line be? Like what would that look like?

JM: So I never ask the first question in a scrum. Okay. So like post game, pregame, whatever, even if it’s quiet, if I needed something from someone, beat goes first. Like that’s just, you know, like I will let every beat person ask everything they need to before I hop in. If I can, like, you know, I’m sure I’ve broken that rule, but like I, if I’m holding up a phone in a scrum and

JS: Right, that’s a good kind of, yeah.

JM: I’m just trying to think of an example. One of the main beats for a team who I think works hard and does a good job is behind me. I’m like, you get in front of me. You need every last word that this person says. I probably don’t. Step in. I think those types of, it feels a little ceremonial maybe to a point, but I think that type of thing is important.

KG: Well, is that is that you or is that where you taught that?

JM: Yes, I wasn’t taught that you you any you watch the people who you think are good at it. You watch how they move and you watch how they act and you watch how they talk to people and you watch where they stand and how they stand and when they stand there and what they do. And then you you copy it like anything, right? Like we learn how to talk because our parents talk to us, you know. So, like for me, that was Andy McCullough in New York, like watching Andy write his Kershaw book. And I was every day there was a visiting team and Andy and I would walk in to visit a clubhouse and I’d try and guess who he was going to ask about Clayton Kershaw. Like, Brandon Belt is from Texas. You’re going to go talk to him. You know, like watching Andy work. Now I’m in DC, like watching Chelsea Jane's work, like watching these people who who you respect do their job.

Something for me that’s bizarre and interesting is like, the thing that I often feel uncomfortable with is being too close with certain players and being too friendly and something that I get playful crap about from people that I’m around. You know, like I’m trying to, uh, like I was, you know, yucking it up with Brandon Lockridge last week, you know, and someone was like, Hey, you know him like, know, and then if you’re laughing really loud in the clubhouse I was with a player and you’re clearly not doing work.

And I’m not holding my phone in their face and I’m not, you know, and that’s a little different in each market, I think.

JS: I agree.

JM: But that’s also what was bizarre and slightly ironic about what happened with me and like Orlando Arcia where I think that the, real problem or the thing that I get crap for struggle more with is the opposite. We’re like, I’m too friendly with people and like falling half backwards by accident into something like that is not how thought I would get, know, touch the coals. So yeah, that’s kind of you. But you just watch people, man. You just you just watch people who are good.

KG: Jordan, did you like in that you mentioned Andy McCullough like is that something where like was it something that you just kind of sidled up next to him and did he kind of take you on your wing or Jordan did you have any sort of mentors or people that you have kind of looked to for that type of guidance?

JS: I mean, again, like a lot of it because a lot of these people have known us. Obviously the relationships have grown in different ways because we have, you know, for a long time, we were people that were friendly faces that were basically just like would make these cameos and we would see them a couple of times a year. And it was always just like, oh, you know, those guys, ha ha ha. It’s different when you’re seeing them every day. Right. And so that it, but we…

For with so many of these people, we have had at least some level of previous relationship to kind of go off of and them generally understanding that like this doing this part of the job is new for us, or at least was, you know, two years ago. And so all you can really do is just try to fit in and in those respects and. know that and it’s just it’s funny because what you realize is, yes, how you act when you’re there matters, but a lot of it is also just literally being there. Like, and that’s true for the player, but like I’ve I’ve noticed this and this has manifested in many ways that like that’s the thing that people in different chapters will give you the most crap for. This is true literally for me right now, like is not being there, you know, like and it’s not that like.

JM: Yeah. My God. Like you thought you were going to go today and you probably texted someone that you’ll be there today and then you weren’t there today. And then, so like, okay. So like I showed the fourth day I’m there and Nats park Nats PR person who’s awesome. It’s like “four days in a row?”, you know?

JS: 100% and I’m getting shitting on you know, I’m still getting shit right and so it’s like same thing. like, that’s the that’s the part where now again, like I don’t, I’m not a FOMO guy and I don’t really, it’s hard to shame me. So I don’t, it rolls off me pretty easily, but like, but I, but I do bring that up because it’s a real, whether or not it is about me specifically or not. Like that is a thing that is true in general in this profession, whether you’re a beat writer, whether you’re just someone, it’s just like, that’s, you know, we’re lucky enough to have these cards.

Use it, you know?

JM: Sponge. Sponge it up. Yeah.

JS: It’s not that like go there and write the best feature of your life every year. It’s not that you’re supposed to necessarily go be amazingly productive every time that you’re there, but it’s like that’s kind of the care, the care factor that you kind of can put in. Now, again, there’s a level. It goes in the other direction where. You’ll have you’ll hear the beat or you’ll hear certain people being like, what am I doing here? Like this was a waste of time. This is like, no, it’s different for every person.

JS: Different beat writers, different outlets, different have different expectations for how often you should be there. Right. There are some people who will be at all 162 or close to it. There are some beats that will, you know, miss a day here, miss a day there. And it doesn’t make a difference or something where it’s like more of they’re a local beat. But again, it totally depends on the outlet. You know, The Athletic have some people where it’s like clearly they’re in one market, but they’re not necessarily writing gamers like there’s different ways to do this job for sure. So I think everyone, no one is trying to pretend like they know how much people are supposed to be at the job. It’s not like anyone is looking at me and being like, man, like, isn’t Yahoo disappointed that you’re not at the ballpark? Like, it’s not about that. It’s just that like you’re there. It’s like, if you’re part of this world, you’re just expected to be part of that world. And like when you’re in the clubhouse and you’re not there, it’s like, where is that guy? Or if you, you know, it goes, it goes both ways. Yeah. Yeah.

KG: It’s noticed in some way. That’s interesting. Yeah, it’s like I think these little like microcultures within it’s so it’s so interesting because it’s everywhere. Like every every industry has it and everything like that. But like that there are rules that there are protocols that that you know that you would be expected to follow and and pick up and learn. And I think that that’s just such a fascinating thing.

JS: Doing this kind of conversation, once a year and like reflecting on the different things that we’ve had happen and like the way that our job has changed because it does change literally every year. I mean hopefully we found some stability. Hopefully we found a long term home at Yahoo! because it’s been great…

JM: The best. The best.

JS: …you know, a lot of it has changed. And so a lot of this perspective we obviously could not have given you even two years ago.

KG: That makes sense. Guys. Well, thank you so much. I will let you get back.

JM: No, thank you so much.

KG: No, thank you so much.

JS: Yeah, we owe you more thank yous than you owe us. Thank yous. That’s for sure. There’s a thank you deficit.

JM: Thank you so much.

KG: Not at all. Not at all true.

I want to thank Jake and Jordan again for coming on the show. Always a blast to talk with those guys and just really appreciate their perspective and all the work that they do every day, writing about baseball, podcasting, social media, just representing and being stand up people in the world and in the industry. thank you guys so much for coming on. Again, you can find their work at Yahoo Sports. You can find them on social media. I will link up their different social media accounts and definitely check out their podcast, Baseball Bar-B-Cast Search wherever you get your podcasts. It’s again, it’s a Yahoo! Sports podcast. So check it out. I’m sure that you will enjoy every moment of it.

Thank you guys for being on the show and take care everybody.