Episode 0003: Rob Bell

Transcript:

Kendall Guillemette (KG): Hello viewers, listeners, everyone. My name is Kendall. I use he, him pronouns. And on the show today, we have Rob Bell. Hello, Rob, and thanks for coming on the show.

Rob Bell (RB): Great to be here.

KG: So you all may know Rob as an author, speaker, playwright, or pastor. My first dose of the Rob Bell experience was almost 35 years ago in a dark crowded basement at a church in suburban Chicago where his band, _ton bundle. was absolutely tearing the roof off the place. This is at something called a Kool-Aide and it’s an absolute core memory of mine. Rob, what do you remember about that time?

RB: Core memory, I like that phrase. Yes. Like when you emailed me, Kool-Aide, I to this day reference Kool-Aide as like a formative moment in my life. Like those genuinely shaped me. Like so profoundly, as much as anything almost. All that energy and, cause it’s cool to give aid… and everybody packed in that basement and there was like a swirl of like the pit and everybody to the back of the room like the I can remember just getting ready to go on being like this is the greatest thing ever something communal and something good and rebellious and dangerous and kind. Like it was lots of things all at the same time. That is so awesome. I get to talk to you about this. It’s just so awesome.

KG: It’s been so fun to like just think back. And so like I was showing Rob this just a second ago. So this is a set list from one of the shows. And it turns out that it was actually September 20th, 1991 was when that show happened. And so it’s like almost 34 years ago to the day we’re recording on September 18th.

RB: Let’s go!

KG: Yeah, it’s wild. It’s wild. But let me maybe set the stage a little bit about what a Kool-Aide was. So it was like this kind of small church basement. And we jammed like over the course of an evening, thousands of people in there. And we’d get bands from the local area to come in and play. And it was wild and raucous and high school and college age students and kids and it was crazy. It was crazy and super fun.

RB: It’s interesting you say church basement because that venue was as punk rock as any punk rock venue I’ve ever been in.

KG: Yes, it was. Yes.

RB: Like the smell. You know what I’m saying? The feel, it was dank. It had, met all the, I don’t know what kind of shenanigans were going on upstairs, but it met the requirements. If you didn’t know what was upstairs, like is there an auto body shop or some sort of mysterious masseuse place? mean, you went into a subterranean portal when you went down those stairs.

KG: Yes, yes, yes.

It was so fun. And like you said, it was this collection of. Like weird and wonderful, and it drew people from high schools all around and college students all around. And even I remember people from Chicago is like 20, 30 miles west of Chicago and people from like Chicago from the city would come out just to go to Kool-Aides.

RB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. You know, it’s interesting as you say that because Urban Outfitters didn’t exist. So there weren’t as many giant corporate entities. Maybe I maybe I’m missing something, but it didn’t at that time. They’re just obviously didn’t have the Internet, but you didn’t have giant corporate entities hoovering up any sort of counterculture.

Or just sucking up anything cool and massing it. So you genuinely did have like, I’ve never seen someone in trousers like that. And I don’t know where you even got them. I don’t know where you got that jacket. Well, my uncle Bob was in Europe and got it for me. Well, I’m never gonna be able to get one of those jackets. you know what I’m saying? Like the homogeneity that so dominates now, The Alley was selling Doc Martens in like, Uptown, Chicago. you sort of had, those are like, like Sinead O’Connor wore those, like British, that was like British, The Who wore Doc Martens. I remember I had my first pair around that time, but like, you had these sort of emblematic things we were wearing and bands we were referencing and alternative was still a word. Like I was like, like what was alternative? Alternative meant not Bon Jovi.

KG: Right. Yeah. And it’s funny. I remember one of the early Kool-Aides when we’re setting up Mike, is one of the other guys who put it on, who maybe we’ll have on the show. That would be fun. But he put on Smells Like Teen Spirit. Never heard it before. Nobody had ever heard it before. And it was just like, “wow, this is something”. And so is that that time frame.

RB: Remember that? Yep. Yep.

KG: Now it’s like, yeah, it just seems like a distant planet, another world.

RB: But I was at that time, that band that I was in, and creating songs and playing them and then the crowd singing them back and then recording an EP and putting it out on cassette and selling it for $5. I call it creation bias, but I experienced making something and sharing it with people. And it literally shaped the course of my life that because it was like this right here. This is what I’m doing here. And it wasn’t even if it was good or not. It was it was good inside in the heart was like and Kool-Aide was and then you guys organizing it was was just a fractal of that like We were making the response to the world was to make stuff

KG: Mm-hmm. Right. I was talking with my sister just about this and it was something that it was like it was cool because I was like I said I was like a high school freshman or sophomore and then the other guy was like a senior maybe and it was like us we were putting on the show. It wasn’t like adults from the church or whatever it was us and I think that that made it a little bit more like…

RB: Yeah. Yeah, right.

KG: There was just some, I’m not saying that I brought the coolness, but it was cool because it was of some, some…

RB: My god, yes. There was no guy named Don in the back that was like, probably ought to turn it down. No, we were in charge. Yeah. Remember that band Catty Wompus that had that hit song Spork? It’s a spoon and a fork, Spork.

KG: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One second. Yes, I do.

RB: my God, you went and got the Catty Wompus cassette. No. This is, this is, my God, this is awesome. I cannot believe you had the Catty Wompus cassette.

KG: I don’t, unfortunately, I don’t have the cassette, but. I got another one for you, Rob.

RB: And then you have, there you go, _ton bundle. Taking My Donkey to Town. Classic.

KG: Yep, I don’t have the first two. Somehow I lost the first two, but I’ve got this. Like I said, it was formative. Those things have traveled with me every place I’ve gone, every place I’ve lived. Yeah, very cool. Very cool time.

RB: Wow.

KG: So what have been up to since then, Rob? Yeah, what have you done?

RB: in the past 34 years? Kind of a continuation of that.

KG: Yeah, you said that in your email, like, tell me what you mean when you say that, like what you mentioned a little bit of just like the spirit that that stirred or like the feelings that that stirred in you. Like, can you trace the thread to like what you’re up to today?

RB: Yeah. Yeah. Like if somebody says they talk about their career, I’m just so happy for them. But I don’t relate to like a sense of having a career or having a sense of like working a plan or like what are your five year goals? There were things to make and speak and film and paint and tour and so I just kept following something and it was like an intuitive let’s try this next. So at any point I don’t.

I don’t know what’s happening. I don’t know where I’m trying to go. I’m trying to be true to this. So it really did shape how I understood, and there was always the next thing to make. And like today, there’s…

KG: Where did that next thing to make, do you feel like where did that come from or did it just kind of bubble up and appear?

RB: It arises within the vast expanse of formless spaciousness that exists within each of us. How’s that for an answer? As all creation does. Yeah, literally that band _ton bundle, we wanted it, I, we wanted to be the next REM and then everybody had to get jobs because college was over. around that time, I discovered the sermon as I came into it as an art form, like, wait.

KG: Perfect. Yeah.

RB: MLK, I have a dream that was, it’s like an art form. And it’s like, it’s like historic, political, poetic. It’s got ancient text, it’s wisdom, it’s the heart, it’s the brain, it’s the body. Um, and I discovered the sermon as an art form. was like, and you don’t have, it doesn’t take as long to, you don’t have to do band rehearsals. Like just, you don’t have to haul equipment. Um, but I really did.

Those Kool-Aides and that experience of standing and we played all that, _ton bundle. played all over in those years, that experience of standing on stage with a microphone and connecting with the back of the room and all of we’re all in this and looking for the melody that everybody could sing about these experiences I was having being a human. The sermon was like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give myself to this. It was like a very specific.

I’m going to see where this can be taken. What is this? And I hadn’t heard anybody really talking about it like an art form, but I was like, yeah, that’s what this is. So I just gave myself to that. And then in the world I came from, the tradition I came from, if you’re asked, if you find these big questions of what does it mean to be human, what are we doing here? Well, then you would go to seminary and you would, like, and that, and my lineage, that’s how you would do that. So I went and did that.

KG: Yeah, and when you were there, obviously. Sermon writing and things like that is is something that is taught right, like I’m sure that you took a class in seminary about how do you structure a sermon, etc, etc.

RB: I got a B in one of the preaching classes because Claudia, I remember her name, marked me down because I wouldn’t stand still behind a lectern. You to stand still. And I was like, I was like working that. I was like working that stage.

KG: Sounds about right. Yeah. So you’re in this setting that is I’m going to teach you how to preach. I’m to teach you how to do this thing. And you’re coming from like over here of like, I’m, I’m making art. I’m, this is an expression. This is a, this isn’t like a rote thing. How did you square that in school? sounds like Claudia and you maybe didn’t see eye to eye on some things, but were there other pieces of your education where that showed up?

RB: Yes. Yeah, because my reference points were the Talking Heads. Those early Red Hot Chili Peppers albums. The Australian protest band Midnight Oil. Like that’s what all those the friends in the band and the friends that you knew that that’s what we were all talking about. That Nirvana cassette. What is that? Why is that? Why is that new? That’s like qualitatively new whatever that guy’s Yeah, so I did. I was like in it and I was also always on the outside. Like I threw myself in, okay, so I’m gonna go learn all this, I’m gonna learn Greek words, et cetera. But I remember studying with a, there was a British theologian who had written a systematic theology which is like showing off. It’s like the Premier League of Thinking about big things, like a whole shelf of hardbound books. And I remember taking a class from him, and this was a big deal in that world. It was like serious inside baseball. And I remember one time on maybe a Thursday afternoon around 2.42 PM, all of a sudden in the middle of his lecture, a very dry, classic British scholar lecture, all of a sudden he went, Roman numeral four. And I remember being like, oh no. Wait, there were other Roman numerals.

KG: Yeah.

RB: No! Wait! there was like, this drone, this guy droning for weeks on end, there was like a, so I would have moments of like, don’t understand, I don’t really groove with how this, and maybe I just simply was too young and probably just didn’t even understand what was going on. But, the, so yeah, all along I was like, what can I, what can I, what is here for me? And also, probably some new way to do it. Yeah, yeah, so I did. was fully into it and also chafing. And I remember I worked with high school students. So Southern California high school students were awesome because they were just like, yeah, that worked, that didn’t. They were just, feedback, the feedback loop was very, so that actually felt right, I felt right at home with them because it was like, I can try out this thing and mess with it and experiment with it and throw myself into it and they kind of get what I’m doing and they’re with me in this.

KG: So then you take preaching, you extend, you go start a church ultimately.

RB: Yeah, like you do.

KG: But yeah, why not? And then that church grows and becomes like a big kind of big deal. People write about it, talk about it, all of these types of things. Then you start writing books. One of the books is called Velvet Elvis. First book, right? That’s your first book. It is also a song, yeah, from _ton bundle. Yeah.

RB: Yeah, which is a song on that record. Yeah, it’s all there. And I do remember actually interesting you mentioned that that book came out in the summer of 05 and then in 06 I did my first tour, which was of punk clubs and like music venues. Like, yeah, so that was like a year after the first. Yeah, yeah. And so that was like tour bus in like a different city each night, which was literally I had like a booking agent for one of my favorite bands and the drummer was a friend of mine. I just literally that _ton bundle. just didn’t stay. It was just there really was there the whole time.

KG: really? That’s the everything is spiritual tour? I watched a video of that or something. I’m sure that they’re all over YouTube or wherever, but…

RB: Yeah, we made a film of it and probably it’s on YouTube. 06. 06 or 7? Probably 07.

KG: And again, like that was something that like when I saw that I was like, my gosh, like this is. And this is just off the top of my head remembering you talked about. There are spiritual things and there are natural things. There’s a reason we use the word supernatural. Tell me if I’m anywhere close to what you said that I’m remembering, but but you talk like.

RB: I don’t remember any of that.

KG: Maybe I’m crazy, maybe it’s something else. like the idea of like, we’re talking about, some people are talking about different things when we’re talking about how the world interacts with spirituality and physicality or the natural world or something like that. That’s what I remember anyway.

RB: Yeah, there was a lot of quantum physics. And what you mean by materiality and how if you break things down, they break down cells to molecules to atoms and atoms can be split and you discover they’re made of subatomic particles and we discovered that you can split those particles and those are made up of smaller particles and those are made up of smaller particles and as of now, are like 150 particles have been identified. So what you think is solidity, like the chair you’re sitting in is actually a relationship of energy.

KG: Yeah. Yeah.

RB: which then is quite fascinating.

KG: Yeah, yeah. For sure. And it’s one of those things where it’s like it kind of broke my brain when it was in 2006. I would have been 30, 20. I don’t know. Something like that. 30 or 20. I can’t do subtraction right now, but like it just it broke my brain a little bit. And so it’s like all of these kinds of.

RB: Hehehehehe

KG: Like you’re very experimental, seems like and correct me if I’m wrong here, but in the way that you approach things like there’s not a. A direct path from one thing to the other, it’s more and you mentioned this earlier, but like a little bit about like whatever bubbles up and following that path and following that idea and those types of things and that ⁓ I think was really present there, but I think it’s also been present in all of the other stuff that you’ve done and created.

Is there a way that you like Do you think through any of this stuff like like you’ve written how many books like? 14 books or something like that 12 books

RB: That have been released. There’s some turds. There’s some turds here in my computer. I’ll tell you that right now

KG: Got it. How do you know OK, yes, this collection of thoughts, ideas is going to be a book is going to be a tour is going to be a, you know, a video or what have you like what? How does it coalesce into something that is like? Not just floating in your brain.

RB: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a bit like seeds in the backyard and you look out the window in the morning and see if any of them have come up out of the earth or sprouted. It’s it’s like tending. okay, let’s notice that one. interesting. that one’s still under the earth. That one might just never. And then other things have their own sort of life force and they just keep emerging. And then you’re like, we actually have to prune that. That’s actually ready. So some, it’s like it’s not mustering them up, it’s paying attention. And then certain things on their own begin to be like, yeah, okay, let’s give ourselves to that. Let’s see where that goes. ⁓ it’s very, in some senses, it’s very mysterious. I have no idea how it works. But then, like everybody listening to your podcast, you do build up muscles. So whatever spaces we’ve been in, they work certain ways and you do build up muscles. So you’re both gaining craft, the trade, the art of it. And there’s also a beginner’s mind where you beginning new each time, which makes it super interesting. Like the great architect Louis Kahn, before designing a building, would say, what does this building want to be? So it’s like an impelling force. You’re noticing, it’s like you’re interviewing it from the get-go.

What does this want to be? What is this? And then you’re following it and seeing. The mind is engaged but it’s serving something larger than itself. And you’re learning the joy is in the making and then you’ve surrendered the outcome. If somebody else actually finds it interesting, that’s amazing.

KG: Right.

RB: And that took a long time to understand what that was. It took years to understand how it all works.

KG: What was your point of view before you?

RB: Just learning to throw yourself into it and surrender the outcomes. And so for some, when you bump up against, can’t control how people are going to respond to my action in the world. That can immediately then cause you to step back, well then why bother? ⁓ Or to try and control the reactions of others and get it to be something in a fabricated, manipulated sort of way. So there’s some, you’re present and in it and just given it all you got and you’re also holding it very loosely. Those two things existing at the same time is in many ways the art of it.

And yeah, those are the kinds of things that just took years to sort of understand.

KG: Yeah, it’s interesting. What you’re talking about is definitely something just from knowing about kind of following along with your life. Like, you know that very specifically and very directly, like you can’t control the outcome of what people think because people didn’t like some of the things that you said along the way.

RB: Yeah.

KG: Is that an understatement?

RB: That happened that really early like really early like a year after _ton bundle. one of the first times I ever spoke I was I was shredded and I remember going back to my apartment and seeing in this chair that my grandma had and Just devastated with how wobbly it actually is. That was early on, the fall of 92. Yeah, I was 22. And I was like, wow, this is like, there is a vulnerability to this that I have to make peace with. Because if I want to do this, then…

KG: How did you do that?

RB: Like turning into the pain. And in many ways, if you want to do this, then this is what comes with it. So just deal with it now, like make peace with it now. If you keep bringing it up and keep wondering why it is the way it is, then go sell insurance or go do something else. Not that that wouldn’t have its own challenges. Just swap this out for some other set of challenges. But this is what comes with this. So if you’re the guy who keeps talking about that dimension of it, I remember that, just make peace with it, this is what comes with it. Otherwise, you’re going to spend so much energy pushing against this reality that it’s energy you could spend giving yourself to it. yeah, and then I remember going like tour, there would be like people with bull horns out front and then death threats later on. Like it was all sort of, there’s a certain…

The second answer to your question is there’s a certain absurdity to some of it. Because the person’s telling you more about themselves. Same with praise. But the person’s telling you more about themselves. You just happen to be the face of some fear. So some of the absurdity of what I experienced, just the cartoonish, over-the-top nature of it, it’s like you start to… Blessed are the ones who are in on the joke.

KG: Right.

RB: Or, I wrote a book called Love Wins and people just enraged. That’s just awesome. Like, Love Wins. What a horrible idea. You know what mean?

KG: Yeah, like, did you miss the title?

RB: Like seriously hot and bothered. So it was painful and you do feel like, yeah, there’s like a, yeah, that’s tough stuff. Also ever so gradually you start to like tune into this is, this is actually just not that much about me.

KG: Yeah. Do you think that that’s a creative, like something with all creative pursuits or like, obviously you were talking about things that are, you know, people’s spiritual lives and things like that. But like the, that vulnerability of putting yourself out there and saying, this is the, this is the work that I’m doing. I’m putting this out there into the world. People are going to like it or not.

RB: Yeah, that’s part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

KG: There’s that vulnerability, whether it’s I’m showing you a painting that I’ve done, or if I’m doing writing a book, doing a sermon, things like that, like it seems like there’s a slice of the creative life that is that giving yourself up to the output.

RB: I can’t imagine if you work in a restaurant and somebody comes in, can I see a menu? Here’s a menu. They read the menu. Thanks. Put the menu down on the little host table and walk out. any vulnerability is the engine of the whole thing. Love itself. If you’re going to have kids or you’re going to fall, mean, vulnerability is the engine of the whole thing. So it’s risk all the way down.

Risk on top of risk on top of risk and they aren’t wearing protective armor. They aren’t wearing turtle shells. It’s just risk all the way down. So yeah, that vulnerability is the engine to the whole thing. It’s what moves us about other people. They opened up their heart and made that and showed it to us. Yeah, so I, when people talk about creatives, I’m always a bit fuzzy because an accountant is bringing structural integrity to the money and if the columns and the money doesn’t add up, you can’t do whatever you’re doing. So how you schedule things on your calendar as a creative act. I would be far, you’re tuning into creation as opposed to, yes you’re being creative but at some level you’re just moving with what is. The whole thing is fundamentally a creation and an ongoing creation and you are its ongoing creation yourself and then of course you are creating all the time. ⁓ As opposed to these people over here who you know are sculptors which is fine that’s great it’s awesome it’s just you’re hard pressed to find somebody who can’t quite quickly with some minimal self inquiry discover all of the creation going on. I remodeling an old car like, the garden beds in the backyard. These are what we do.

KG: Yeah, even like folding our laundry, we all fold our laundry different. You know, I fold my laundry in a certain way and, you my shirts are folded this way. And it’s like, yours may be different. Yours might not even be folded.

RB: Ugh. Yeah. You roll. Some guy rolls his. What in the world? Hangs it from some weird clip on a hanger. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KG: Right. Yeah. And it’s like, I don’t know if that’s a creative act, but that is participating in this creative kind of situation. Yeah. Yeah. You talk a lot also over the over time about suffering and creativity. so that I think is also part of that vulnerability, like letting other people see the suffering that we’ve experienced, see some of the joy that we’ve experienced, that type of thing.

RB: Yeah, you’re doing it how you do it.

KG: What do you, like how do you talk about that connection between suffering and creativity?

RB: yeah. Yeah, because it’s like the suffering artist is sort of insufferable to me. Like you have to like suffer for your art, like come on. I just, I started out as a pastor and so I would, you get called to the hospital, the funeral home. You’re like walking with people over many years and so you watch people go through like car accidents and cancer and bankruptcy and all these things but then over time I would notice that people would say things like remember that thing that happened to me like yeah, whoo, that was brutal and they’d say, weirdly enough like it altered the entire trajectory of my life and I would notice the person saying it’s like they were circling it with honestly now I wouldn’t have wished that upon my worst enemy, but I’m kind of… And you can see they want to say grateful, but that feels so incongruous. So I just kept noticing that when people would talk about the events that have really shaped them… people generally didn’t say things like, I went camping once. Yes, yes, that was shaped. when you get, like, what are the few events that have most shaped you? People talk about loss, death, grief, betrayal, and seem to be disproportionately more those kinds of things than.

Other experiences so I just came to there’s something creative about these things that we don’t seek out that they like they come for us They often have tremendous latent creative energies packed into them and wven a funeral I did in my early days in my early days. Look at me. I did a lot of funerals and it was fascinating to me to watch how many people were present in a funeral in a way, there was a certain kind of presence, like, my God, there’s a body in the room. And I knew that person and they’re gone. And I just watched how many people were listening to their own life with a certain kind of intention and clarity. Someone they knew died.

And so it just became somewhat upside down. Like all of these things that were terrified might happen do this extraordinary transforming work on us often. Yeah, I think that’s where that came from.

KG: You mentioned a little bit earlier, like the the idea of a creative or people getting caught up in I’m not an artist or I’m not creative or I can’t draw or what have you. Like when you hear that or when those things come up, like do you first of all, do you say anything if somebody came up to you and is like, the things you do are so creative and it’s so awesome, blah, blah. I’m just not an artist. I’m not creative like you, Rob.

How would you respond to that?

RB: What do you do when you wake up in the morning? I would ask them granular questions about what they do when they wake up in the morning. What do you do? What kind of things do do when you wake up? And then what? And then what?

KG: Right. Right.

RB: And it’s the… And people ask me what I do, I would generally start telling them what I did that day, starting first when I woke up. Because it’s actually honest and there’s something intimate about it. And generally, whatever it is that I would say that I do will be in there somewhere. ⁓ I just notice how it connects us to each other in really interesting ways. People laugh, but then… How do you drink your coffee?

If you stop somebody said, well, so I had coffee and then I guess I they’re looking at you like what then I had a coffee like how do you do? How do you and now you’re into coffee, but you’re also way into this person Yeah, I just find that to be super interesting. I imagine I’m like you when there’s somebody I’ve admired And I get to meet them. What kind of car did they come in? Kind of shoes other way. How did they set up their life?

KG: Yeah, that stuff is fascinating. Like that.

RB: It never stops being the most fascinating thing ever.

KG: Yeah, people are so unique and weird and fascinating. What about that thing was interesting to you like that? That doesn’t make any sense to me. What? Why was that important to you or what have you like those types of questions? Just sitting down with somebody or talking with somebody that you know really well even to be like, oh, like I just noticed that you, know, like you.

RB: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.

KG: You dip your biscuit in your tea in a particular way and you do it every time and I just noticed that you do it every time. Like, where did you get that? Yeah. Yeah, that’s.

RB: Yeah, what’s that about? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s like 49% what they made or what they did or what they started or what caused and 51% or maybe it’s 50-50. The how. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.

KG: Right. Right. How did it come about that? That’s what your life was or how did it come about that, you know, you drink black coffee or you drink coffee with whatever? Yeah, that’s. Yeah, people, because everybody’s answer is going to be different. And I think that that’s the beauty.

RB: God, it’s so, so interesting to me.

KG: Yeah. So Rob, what did you do today? Or what do you do? Sorry, what do you do?

RB: What do I do? Well, it was raining so I didn’t go surfing. Probably would have gone surfing. Yesterday morning surfing, tomorrow morning surfing. I did some stretching in Tai Chi and then I had a coffee. Well, I just used a Chemex for the first time the other day, a pour-over with Bonito beans that are roasted here in Ojai.

KG: How do you take your coffee?

RB: With a Nut Pod almond coconut unsweetened creamer, which is the thing for me. Uh-huh, uh-huh. This is funny that I’m talking to you today. And then I went to my friend’s studio and worked on some songs, recorded some songs.

KG: That’s the magic. Nice. So you’re in a band now. It’s still like not still. It’s not the same band. It’s a different band, right?

RB: I seem to always be making some noise. Yeah, Humans on the Floor. And we just started talking about, because my friend who plays on the recordings just moved here to Ojai and Nolan, that’s Brent, and Nolan who’s been engineering this recording at his studio can play anything. So we were like, we’re going to start playing shows, aren’t we? They’re like, yeah.

KG: Right. Yes. Let’s do that. Yeah, that has always been a part, like because I know _ton bundle. from 35 years ago and then yeah.

RB: comes and goes. It comes and goes but lately it’s been a wonderful friend but he, something about when we get in the studio of his, like, yeah, lots of songs come out and it’s super, really, really enjoyable. Really enjoyable.

KG: Yeah, and you started your podcast probably a long time ago. How many years ago was that?

RB: Ten years ago, I just did the… We just had a live thing at the Playhouse here in Ojai for the 400th episode. Who knew?

KG: 10 years ago. Yeah, like when you started that, what was your. I think I actually I already know the answer to this because it’s probably similar to the other answers that you’ve provided about creative endeavors, but like what what was there, what were you like? Yeah, I should start a podcast because I recently wrestled with that question of, yeah, I should start a podcast. And then I’m like, well, should I? But.

RB: Yeah, should is an energetically loaded word that will rarely get you anywhere interesting. It implies an outside second self. There’s only one Kendall. Anytime someone uses, in my work with people anytime someone uses should we already we just hold on hold on. Yeah, yeah, same with supposed to. There’s only one us. There isn’t some ideal us existing in our brains. That’s that’s just the quickest way to punch yourself in the face. And then go searching for fifths.

KG: You did. Stop there. Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting.

Yeah, that’s a freeing thing though, like when you let go of that, it’s like, and that’s ultimately where I got to was like, well, yeah, like I want to do, I want to talk to people and meet people and, you know, like all of those things. And that’s.

RB: Want is much better.

KG: That’s what I like. That sounds super interesting to me and super fun. So I’m going to do that. And like you say, the outcome is the outcome. Like if people listen to it, awesome, great, whatever. But like, yeah, this, this is what I’m doing it for. It’s not for like whatever else. Yeah.

RB: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You’re having a blast. Right, right, yeah, good, good. That’s why people will enjoy it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s the great, that’s not even a secret, but that is the great secret right there.

KG: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. So your podcast is is have listened off and on. But a lot of times it’s just a thought or like that you kind of talk about for the the episode or the the show is is that how it kind of comes into your world? You’re like, like you said, the seeds in the backyard tending to them and being, I want to press record and go with this.

RB: I’m usually paying attention to something and I begin to notice a pattern It’s something you generally something happens and I’m noticing how it connects to other things.

There’s a teacher in there and always has been. So it’s not just, I’m not talking off the top of my head. I have structured it and outlined it at some level and thought through what exactly am I saying here. If you work at it for enough years, it might sound like you’re just talking.

People have like, used to, people have not quite your question, but people are like, do you just hit record and just start? Who’s that good? Maybe there are people who just hit record and start like up that I’m not, I’m nowhere. No, no, like jotted down. Where is it? Here we go. Here’s some possibly future episodes. Yeah, there’s generally a stack of, I like paper and pen. I like, there’s a Japanese pen.

It’s Japanese brand right here, Geo. GSO one Oto But yeah, generally there’s paper somewhere by and I’m sketching or make them yeah pages document in my computer that it’s stuff that I’m like, that’d be interesting I There’s something there. Mm-hmm. And then eventually it gets clear like Yeah, I’ll call it this and we’ll go here then we’ll go there and then mm-hmm. Mm-hmm And then it kind of morphed over the years. It gets longer. It gets shorter I don’t I’ve had to go away from it and then come back to it keep revisiting like rediscovering it or how to do it or at one point, episodes were always long. And then I was like, wait, I’m it’s the Rob Cast. I would think I’m as long as I want. So I would put them out like as records, like a of short ones at once. ⁓ Yeah. So I just endlessly have to, I have to walk away from it in order to come back to it. It’s like there’s form and spirit and sometimes you just a whole need form. But if you’re working in a particular medium, it’s like you have to walk away and reboot the spirit.

Come in a different like through a different door. That’s awful. That’s happened a number of times and I would talk to people once in a while I interview people then I stopped for years and then just recently I Interviewed some people in among me just talking. Mm-hmm. That’s like Yes, it’s central to something like that is you keep like you you’ll keep either finding people you want to talk to or you’ll have a different way that you structure how you talk to people or you’ll… You keep re- finding your way back in so that it’s like a death and then a rebirth within a medium, if you’re working in a medium.

KG: Yeah. I did a podcast in like 2017, 2018. It was like very baseball specific, but it was like talking to people. And I was like, this is awesome. I love doing this. And then I found myself wanting to talk to other types of people. And so I was like, well, like maybe I should do that. And so now, however many years later, seven, eight years later, I’m like, yeah, no, I do want to talk to people. Yeah.

RB: Yeah.

KG: More than just baseball. Something that’s interesting to me as as people go through experiences their life, sometimes you start to feel a little bit untethered or unmoored. Is there a piece of music, art, poetry, writing that you return to when you feel that like?

I don’t know if it’s disconnection from yourself or disconnection from other people or anything like that. Like, what do you turn to?

RB: Well, you’re described there’s a number of things you’re describing the abyss, the void, The dark night of the soul. The feeling of lostness almost like when your taste buds for your life go dull And that might and it might be clinical neurochemical you might need also that’s a very normal rhythm of life. And lots of people, we were taught and conditioned how to inoculate ourselves against that. Like here’s what you quote or remember, the feeling of, ⁓ and we existential angst, the feeling of meaninglessness, purposelessness is like, well, here’s how you fight that as opposed to invite it in.

In some ways it comes to remind you this isn’t a head game we’re playing. So your brain is like, why am I down? Why am I feeling? I mean, there may be real diagnoses, but it also may be, ⁓ yeah, excellent, the void. talk about this, how many people are like, my God, yes. And if you learn not to fight, if you don’t fight it, but you, okay, all right.

How often something really interesting is birthed on the other side of it. And lots of people in Western culture didn’t know what to do with this, so just stuffed it, numbed it. But in my experience, when you talk to people about this, lots and lots and lots of people are like, oh yeah, the abyss, feeling like what’s the point of anything? And instead of the mind rushing in with, oh, the point of this, and this is the reason, this is not an intellectual exercise being a human being. It’s a full bodied experience. Often there’s just ungreaved grief.

KG: Yeah. Yeah, there that 100 percent like I know growing up for me like. There was I was not in touch with that, I was not inviting the dark, the shadows in to say like, I’m going to just sit and feel this anger, frustration, whatever. And so it’s been through learning that that’s actually a good thing. And like that will actually allow me to.

RB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can be quite life changing. ⁓

KG: powerful life changing. And so doing that I think is, yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

RB: In answer to your question… The body, move the body. Generally something’s asking to pass. Like it’s like a wave, like most emotion. So you just move that body, start walking.

KG: Mm-hmm. And for you, is that always not always, but is that surfing? Surfing seems to be a big thing for you.

RB: Surfing, hiking, I have this like single speed coaster break, like European roadster bike. It’s like the most simple and I ride that to my studio space here and I’ll ride over to my friend’s house, just ride around. But I am noticing how many people, I mean, we now know that what, 96% of the universe is dark matter black holes black dark energy all that whatever that means that somehow that’s vital for the life I’m just noticing how many people Think about the Industrial Revolution creating worker bees like clock in clock out Which is fine responsibility paying the bills lovely getting things done fine, but I’m noticing how many people are discovering these deeper rhythms in which things shut down and If you don’t override, but you listen to them you’re weirdly way more productive than ever. Like an hour or two in a good place is worth who knows how many hours stretched, repressed, distracted, tired. I’m just fascinated with how many people are moving into more natural rhythms of life in which more actually gets done,but in a completely different kind of way.

KG: Yeah, different context, different spirit.

RB: And it probably is like, I mean, lots of it is just the collective emotional body health is like so much higher than it was. People even realize they have bodies at some level.

KG: Yeah. Right. So another question that I have for you, Rob, is when you feel small or unsure, and maybe this is the, maybe I’m just asking the same question with different words. When you feel small or unsure, what do you do? How do you kind of get yourself through that or whatever? And maybe, I don’t know, it’s interesting, because I have these questions written out, and it’s like our conversation is in a way, already answered them or, you know what I mean? It’s like, yeah, you move your body, you listen to yourself, you pay attention, all of those things. So yeah, so I don’t know if there’s too much to add there.

RB: Like I have a couple of friends who we will literally call each other and be like I got two items and that like don’t even say hi I got two and the other one will be like yeah, I got one. It’s probably gonna grow to three and it’s literally Okay, what’s yours? I’m noticing this thing so I seem to talk it through got it go and it’s like people that you’re walking with who you just I like had this interaction today and it threw me and I’m trying to see what it was what the thing was behind the thing and then the friend like you have these people you’re walking with and you like play it out okay play it out

KG: Yeah. Ask questions. Poke at it a little bit.

RB: The best I love it. I had a friend who we talked most mornings and will often talk he’s on the East Coast will often talk around his end of the day and it’s just now like I got three things yeah good, so do I well who wants to go? Let’s go over the one okay go man. I had a meeting like he’ll just Yeah, yeah or are and another friend of mine is a master of… So what’s the thought? What’s the thought? Is it true? We’ll like do some Byron Katie level self-inquiry around… He’s just a master of walking with like, what’s it telling you? Because the suffering is only between your ears. So… Let’s find it. Let’s identify it. there it is. Yeah.

Generally solitude and quiet and and I would say following it back to its cave like what is this where it’s like a thread and you pull it what was that why did that person evoke such a strong whatever they evoked what was that about who are they who was I what was happening

What does feel like? What does it remind me of? In my experience, working with people doesn’t take much self-inquiry to get to lots and lots of things. I’ve watched people and myself, a couple of questions and we’re at like, my God, when I was seven, I picked up this story about the world.

KG: Yeah.

RB: We humans are frantic, we can get really bungled up and get convinced the whole thing is super complex and then just some silence and spaciousness and stillness and some basic self-inquiry and you can get to so many things so surprisingly quickly. And oftentimes you get to fear, loneliness, I needed the money, I wanted them to like me.

I felt small, felt big, felt like… Yeah. We’re endlessly fascinating and surprising and we’re also like kind of super predictable all at the same time.

KG: Very simple, very like, yeah, I was afraid of, fill in the blank. Like that’s a lot of times what it boils down. I was afraid that nobody would like me. I was afraid that I wouldn’t get the job or I would whatever.

RB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

KG: What do you hope that people feel when they remember being around you?

RB: Interesting. I don’t ever think about that.

Uh-huh. This man has no hopes for how people would feel when they’re… I’ve always fascinated when people talk about their legacy or something. You know, my legacy, and I always like, what? Like, by the way, you’re the last person who decides your legacy for the record. That’s the funniest thing to me. Here’s how I want to be remembered. I just find all that confound… Like, what? What? Like, you’re trying to control… You’re literally…

KG: You have very little say in that. Yeah.

RB: trying to control when you’re not even here. How controlling are you in this life that you’re already trying to control when you’re out here?

Just do your thing. Just eat the sandwich, Eat the sandwich. You know what mean? Buy everybody a drink. Just do your thing. We’ll be fine. You’ll be fine. That’s a funny question.

KG: So when you’re quiet with yourself, you just talked about that solitude and that space. What word or question keeps coming up for you right now?

RB: Uhhhh… Do I have everything I need? Yes, I do. Excellent. Do I still have everything I need? Yes. And noticing how much comes from, what about? And it’s not about this moment.

I’m finding new depths to how much the mind is like, yeah, but we got to make sure that we’re set for that. Is there anything? Is there anything to do about that right now? No. Okay. So, we’re good. We’re good.

Yeah, we’re good.

KG: It seems like that frees you up to then be like more present like there’s a lot of just from the beginning of our conversation today and things like that It’s it’s a lot of being in the moment being present being with yourself with your feelings all of those kinds of things is that something that you feel like is key to everything, but like, you know what I mean? Like that paying attention, that presence within yourself, that acceptance within yourself, that letting go of other people’s expectations or thoughts. Seems like that is like a very fundamental kind of way that you engage with the world. Is that accurate?

RB: Mm-hmm. Yes, a clear and quiet mind is what everybody actually wants. You take that over money, you would take that over fame, you would take that over a clear and quiet and still mind.

That’s actually wonder and awe and a clear mind. Wonder and awe about your own existence and a calm quiet mind. That’s that’s… You don’t want Bitcoin? Come on.

KG: Yeah. That’s not really what you’re looking for. Yeah. OK. That’s interesting.

RB: And that’s actually where all your questions about creation, that’s where the new creation arises. It’s quiet and still and things arise. ⁓ I could do that thing differently. I could tweak that a little bit. We could put that stuff in the garage and that stuff in the garage we could give away and that thing over there we could paint green. Like, you get the marching orders at some level. That’s what I do like here in Ojai when people come. I do these two-day events and people come and sit across from me and you just watch people find clarity. We sit with the person and I ask them questions. They bring a question and I ask them questions about their question. But you watch person after person find clarity.

You watch people make connections that they never made their entire life about something and make it like with a certain kind of effortlessness and ease. It’s literally talking on a stage with a microphone now isn’t that interesting to me. I would much rather sit with somebody who has a question and just watch them.

KG: Yeah. That’s another question I was going to ask was like. Historically, you’ve gone from that on the stage with a microphone to now the things that you’re doing are much more collaborative. You have workshops, like you just mentioned, and different things like that. Is that because it’s more interesting?

RB: That’s the best. I don’t, nobody knows, I have no idea what the person’s gonna say or what’s gonna happen or where we’re gonna go together. I love it so much.

KG: That’s fascinating. I think that you’re your curiosity about things like you were talking about, like asking the questions of like kind of just poking at stuff with your friend who’d ask, you know, says like, I’ve got a thing. And then you’re like, well, tell me, tell me about it. And then you’re kind of, well, yeah, what about that? And what about this? And it’s like it’s like you do that with the people that come to these workshops and that type of thing. Do you do that with everybody? Like, is that like if you’re like.

RB: Ha

KG: talking to one of your kids or somebody you meet on the street when you’re going for a bike ride. Is that just how you approach interacting with people?

RB: Like what’s going on here? How was your day? What are you learning? Let’s chop it up here.

KG: Right. Yeah.

RB: Are the Clippers gonna get fined? Are the Seahawks gonna figure out their passing offense? I mean, there’s other things as well. Have you seen the new PT Anderson film? All the normal stuff and yeah, yeah, we’re yeah like I’m trying to think yeah, I have this friend Pete who’s a comedian and yeah, we, and when we get together, we’re two seconds and we’re in. And it, yeah, yeah, mm-hmm. That’s the, that’s the, yeah, we, that’s how it works. Is you have these people that you’re walking with.

KG: Right. Yeah. Well, we do a thing here I’ve asked you a bunch of questions, but now I want to turn it around and have you ask a question of me, of our listeners, and eventually Pedro Pascal when we have him on. But what is the question that you want to put out into the world for people to think about or answer?

RB: What is your favorite word?

KG: My favorite word.

RB: Mm-hmm.

KG: Is fuck.

It is so versatile. It is a question. It is an exclamation. It is so many different things.

RB: It’s the Swiss Army Knife of Words.

KG: It really is. It really is. And you can put other words there with it that make it better or different. Yeah. I mean, that is the answer that is real.

RB: That’s good. You had that one in the you just had that one right there in the pocket.

KG: That’s right. Yeah, for sure. It is, that is my favorite word. What’s your favorite word?

RB: Okay, I’m gonna narrow it down to three. First favorite word? Jeuge.

KG: Yes.

RB: Love it. Second favorite word? Ayayayay.

Love it. Absolute favorite word, un-pigeon-hol-able.

KG: Ooh, that’s a good one. That’s a very long and descriptive word.

RB: God, I mean, that is like a word at its finest. Other words, just see that word and we’re like, I give up. That’s You win. I got nothing. No notes.

KG: Yeah, I got nothing. I got nothing on that. That’s it. That is the platonic ideal of a word. So Rob, where can people find out about what you’re up to if they’re like, hey, I know this guy, or I just met this guy for the first time, Rob Bell, and they’re liking what you’re bringing to the party? Where can they find more information about you?

RB: My site has all the books plays paintings events workshops audiobooks that robbell.com that’s probably the place to start.

KG: Awesome. Well, Rob, thank you so much. Yes, it’s been so great to catch up with you and see, pick your brain a little bit, talk with you, learn about you, and just so appreciate you making the time to come on the show. Thank you so much.

RB: It’s so great talking to you. It’s great talking to you. Just great. I’ll see you at the next _ton bundle. Show.

KG: Yeah. I can’t wait.

I want to say thank you to Rob for coming on the show, making time for us today.

Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Like, wherever you like things on the internet. Feel free to share this with everyone that you know in the whole world. Thank you for your time and I hope you have a great day. Take care.

[Note: This has been edited for clarity]