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Kendall Guillemette (KG): Hello everyone, welcome to the show. My name is Kendall. I use he, him pronouns.
I’m in a little bit of a new environment. I’ve got a different setup around me now.
Today on the show. We have director of photography, Ken Seng who is responsible for the cinematography on the first Deadpool movie currently working on a film in Australia. He’s taken some time out of his production schedule on the movie he’s working on now to talk with us.
I have so many questions and let’s get to it.
Ken, thanks for joining us.
Ken Seng (KS): Yeah, my pleasure to be here.
KG: So a little bit of history. So I moved when I was, I don’t know, in junior high school or something. Ken lived about three doors down from me and I remember playing video games in your basement when I first moved there. So that is how far we go back. And now we’re talking here. So maybe I want to go a little bit back to the beginning for you.
At what point was working in the film industry something that you wanted to pursue?
KS: Yeah. So I started out, you know, I had no connection at all to this industry and was not one of those kids who grew up with a camera in his hand making home movies. I was in business school and I started taking kind of cool, weird electives just cause I wanted to sort of spread my wings. I took a world cinema class and we had a whole section on the French New Wave which is this amazing period in cinematic history where sort of the first fringe, very artistic, social commentary films were being made in Paris by two filmmakers Jean-Luc Godard and Francois Truffaut. And so I this whole unit in this class on these movies and I saw one movie called Shoot the Piano Player and another movie called Masculine Feminine.
And these movies blew my mind and just like cracked open everything for me and made me question what I was doing.
KG: What’s the timeframe?
KS: The French New Wave, we’re talking late 60s, early 70s French cinema. Yeah. Highly recommend watching some of these movies. Kind of the most famous would be Breathless or 400 Blows in terms of that, that area, that time.
I ended up dropping out of business school because it was just not my people and it didn’t quite feel right. And I knew I wanted a job that was dynamic and interesting and I didn’t want to wear a suit and I wanted to be somehow involved in the arts and I didn’t know what I wanted to do so I took sort of a gap year and I went on a NOLS trip, which is the National Outdoor Leadership School. And I did this 98 day trip because some friends in town, their sort of older siblings went and they were people that I really looked up to, like Lex Remillard. And so he did this program, I heard all about it and it sounded amazing. And it was 98 days in the woods learning how to be a, how to survive and thrive and climb mountains and backpack and have no tents and deal with snow and all these sorts of things. Learning a bit of rock climbing.
I always shot pictures, I always had a still camera in my hand, and on that trip, I brought a 35 millimeter camera with me and a bunch of slide film, and I love to shoot chrome, which is, you know, as opposed to a traditional negative film that you would shoot.
This is a much different thing in that it’s chrome and it’s harder to shoot and it’s got less latitude and these kind of things. But I ended up just shooting a ton of slides on this trip and when I was done, I figured it out. I was going to be a National Geographic Cinematographer. And so I went to film school, I went back to Chicago.
And I worked as a bike messenger during the day and I went to film school at night. And at that point I decided, okay, I’m going to learn how to be a National Geographic cinematographer and learn all the things. And in doing that, I ended up really falling in love with narrative filmmaking and specifically lighting and It seems so hard to make my student films which we were shooting on 16 millimeter film at that time Make them look like Hollywood movies it was like impossible to me and so I became totally obsessed and It’s at that point that I sort of course corrected and I started working in a lighting house and I shifted away from that National Geographic idea into more narrative filmmaking and just really got obsessed with these sort 70s cinema that was happening all over the world. And so my love of the French New Wave grew.
My love of just American film in the 70s, like all those early John Cassavetes movies, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen them, but Shadow’s Faces, Killing of a Chinese Bookie, one of the, I mean just some of the best movies ever made. And they’re these little fringe indie movies. And that’s my long-winded answer of how I sort of got into the film business.
KG: Yeah, well, you’re certainly filling up my to watch queue here. So this is super cool.
KS: I can do that. I can do that easily.
KG: Yeah, I’m sure I’m sure. So you you’re in school or no, you’re not in school or you. Yeah, you finished film school and then you’re kind of doing this. Is there independent film that you’re working on? Are you working on shorts or like how do you take that step into from student into filmmaker? or cinematographer, what have you.
KS: That’s great question.
Usually what you have to do is you have to work for free for a few years So during film school everyone would have projects and you would kind of it would be assumed that you were going to help out on other people’s projects so for instance a friend would have a short they were doing on the weekend and they might ask me to be the gaffer which is like the head lighting technician or they might ask me to be the key grip or the camera assistant or the camera operator and so
Those few years that I was in film school, every single weekend was like loading up like this old car I had with C stands and lights and cameras and driving out somewhere and working crazy hours and returning all the gear and you know, sort of that’s how we all learned and I really love that.
community and that idea of just making these like art projects together and That’s sort of when I really started Falling in love with it. And while I was sort of doing all these Indie movies. I got a job at this lighting house in Chicago loading trucks for commercials and movies and so I was sort of a shop guy and I would learn how to like fix this light fix that light load the truck I was responsible for loading trucks and worked for an amazing gaffer, this guy Todd Thomason, was, and Lamar Bloodworth, are, Todd was a very intense guy to work for, and the standards were very high, and he sort of taught us how to live and work on set, which was like, you’ve got this Secret Service earpiece in, your arms are behind your back, you sit against the wall, you listen.
Everything is perfect. Everything looks, the cables on the floor are all wound perfectly. And when someone calls for a light, you know exactly what stand to bring and what kind of light cutting. And when this is called for, that happens. It was very, this like very militaristic way of working. And I think it really set this high standard for me of how to get things done and how to operate that really kind of helped me in my, on my path.
KG: Is that something that you continue? Cause now you’re in a different role, obviously, like as you, you’re director of photography. So you’re kind of running the whole experience and you’re leading teams. So do you lead your teams in that same way?
KS: I’m open, I’m more open now than I used to be because I am quite lucky in that I get to work with the best crews in the world when I go places. For instance, I’m in Australia right now and I’m working with, you know, the top crew in Sydney and I’ve got all these people. So people have different working styles and I’ve really learned to not try to bend everything to my will like I used to at the beginning of my career. So I’m very open to working styles and some people have that militaristic sort of way, but most don’t. And most are a little more loose about it, but the work gets done and yes. But that was a great way to come up because I think I learned what was possible and what excellence looked like.
So it was great.
KG: I’m fascinated with the art of filmmaking and so I have a ton of just kind of process questions and how you work. So like you receive a script or you get pulled into a What’s your first, like how do you go about thinking through your process as, you know, working on that project?
KS: Yeah, so as a director of photography, I’m not sure how much your audience knows about it, but it’s a director of photography’s job to interpret the script with the director. And we are responsible for executing the photography of the film. And we’re in charge of all the visuals, all the lighting, all the rigging, all the camera work and, you know, the look of the film in the end.
And so typically what’ll happen is I’ll get a script, I’ll read it one time very quickly. A script’s usually 120 pages long. So I’ll read a script and usually I love to just sit on it and kind of ruminate on what it could be. And I’ve kind of got these ideas in my mind of, it’d be really interesting if we use this kind of lighting for this character and it’d be really interesting if we use these really high speed cameras for this section and this part maybe will look kind of like film noir because of this character trait that we’re trying to embody or we’re trying to pull the audience back into time. And so that’s really the first step. And then when I read it again. You know, every time, unless we’re working with a director that we’ve worked with in the past, we’re interviewing for jobs constantly. So every time it’s freelance. And you’re always sort of, I have an agent and my agent will call me and say, oh, there’s this big movie happening, but they’re interested in these cinematographers, but we think we might be able to get you in this way. you know, there’s this other movie and I’ll say, I’ve got a connection to that person, let me work on that. So it’s always like hustling to sort of find an inroads, but once I get an interview with the director, I’ll do that first read, then I’ll do a second read, and at that time, I start to make a ton of notes of my questions for the director, my interpretation of the script, ideas that I’m excited about. know, sometimes I might be worried about a part of a film, that if it’s shot a certain way, I’ll have a lot of reservations about it. So I’ll oftentimes think, okay, what is the best version of this film? And maybe it’s a comedy, maybe it’s a drama, maybe it’s an action film, maybe it’s a horror film. So tonally, those are all very different things.
I’ll have a meeting with the director where I’m trying to really calibrate my thoughts into a very succinct way of thinking about the photography of the entire movie. So I’ll do a keynote or where I’ll pull images and I might say, this character should feel like this. This character should feel like this. These are the type of rules that I would like to impose on the filmmaking because I’m a big believer in setting up guardrails to how you work. Like whenever we’re with this character we only use wide lenses close to them. We are only handheld in these kinds of scenes. These scenes we’re going to use more robotic crane type movements in and out.
And color theory will be a big part of it, and the texture of the film. Like maybe this needs to be grainy and feel handmade and messy versus something that might want to feel slick and sort of robotic or built artificially.
KG: And then in the process, does the director also come with those ideas as well in terms of, hey, I want it to look like this. And so then you kind of collaborate in that space or like, how does that artwork?
KS: Absolutely, absolutely. Because it’s, you know, ultimately I’m getting hired by and working for a director, but the best idea, the best relationships and the ones that I seek out are these sort of no ego, best idea wins atmosphere of working. And I’m in one of those right now, which is amazing. And in that regard, I might say, this is, I think this is interesting. What do you think about this? And he might say, or she might say, that’s a great idea, but I was thinking of this. And then we’ll sort of like start working off of each other. And then I’ll be like, interesting. You wanna harken back to this other moment. So we wanna use this kind of camera work here. And now I understand, you know, because, typically, I might have thought about the script for two weeks. They’ve probably been working on it for a year. So, and there’s different kinds of directors. There’s directors I work with who want me to be in charge of almost all the visuals. And they’re really about story and they’re really about intention and they’re really about actors. And then there’s other directors who might really know what all the shots they want and I’m really lighting and then suggesting shots. But I typically try to steer myself into the situations where it’s really this 50-50 collaboration and everything is just this flowing of ideas. And so now that I have a lot more experience and film’s under my belt, I can sort of feel what it’s like when I meet a director and sort of try to steer myself into those types of relationships.
Because, you know, I’ve also had relationships that weren’t great. And being on a movie with someone for eight months or so when you don’t feel that collaboration, when you feel, you know, that you’re just not flowing on the same page, it’s a long time to be living in that sort of space. you know, I try to find the relationships that feel rewarding and like we’re gonna be able to do the best work.
KG: Yeah. Are there other, like you talked about your relationship with the director, are there other relationships in terms shaping the course of a movie or is it pretty much the director of photography, the director and then kind of go, it all stems from that or is there other kind of players in the, in the mix there?
KS: No, that’s a very good question. So, stemming from that interview process, if I get the job or get to round two or whatever, I might meet up with the production designer. And the production designer is usually on before me and they’re interpreting the script the same way I am and would have a similar sort of interaction with the director where instead of showing them like colors and images and paintings and film reference that I might show them, they might show them similar things but having to do with like architecture and lighting and environment and place. so once I get the job, it’s really a collaboration, especially in the beginning of the film with the production designer, the costume designer, the director, and myself. And now there’s a lot of visual effects heavy films. So another really important element is the visual effects supervisor. So that’s an area that they get Oscars for that. And there’s a reason that is such a key thing because in a lot of movies they’re doing a lot of heavy lifting and they’re building worlds beyond the concept drawings that the production designer would make. So I would say to answer your question, the main collaborators are costumes, hair, makeup, the production designer, visual effects.
And right now I’m on an action movie. shooting Street Fighter. And the stunt coordinator is a massive part of that team. And you know, that depends on an action movie. Maybe you have a stunt coordinator who does like a car accident and a chase down the street or something. But that’s it.
But on this movie, it’s a massive, massive part of the film. those are the collaborators that I’m working with. And producers. There’s writers and creative producers. And a lot of times we’ll have a writer. The scripts will be constantly being rewritten. So that’s definitely a big element. And I’ll be in on those meetings sometimes and the producers definitely, there’s always a challenge of fitting in a box. So we typically start a movie and we’re already like $10 million over budget before we start. So you’ve got to sort of like keep it expansive and keep doing the best thing for the movie, but also contract it into sort of the box that we need to make it in. So, you know, in the beginning we worked Blue Sky and then we sort of like come into whatever we’re capable of doing. But I think solving those problems and being creative and figuring that out is one of the best parts of the job.
KG: Yeah, that collaboration. I’ve heard people talk about how like filmmaking is the most collaborative form of art because it takes hundreds of, you know, like people versus somebody painting a painting or what have you. So, yeah, I think that that’s really, really an interesting bit because you shape it in your own way. The director shapes it in their own way. The actors shape it in their like everybody has their fingerprint on it in a particular way.
KS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can’t even believe I left out the actors because that is obviously why we’re there. And, you know, guess I’m in this prep mode now. like, I, when I get off this call, I’m going to a shot listing meeting with the director. I met with the special effects guys today about like shaking and smoke and fire and wind and… you know, so I’m in this prep mode, but I mean, really some of the greatest collaborations are with the actors and we, you know, just there’s nothing better than having your eye on the eyepiece of a film camera and feeling this direct connection and watching an actor do some amazing performance. And it’s the most moving thing in the world and it’s just incredible. It’s incredible. So like you said, it is the most collaborative art form there is and you know, actors will frequently shape a scene or what we’re doing because we may have a meeting or a rehearsal and they might have an idea of how something could change and that could totally alter what we’re doing as well and you know, I love sort of responding to those cues and it’s the director’s job to sort of that’s what’s so unique about a director is they’re taking all these incredibly talented, creative people and sort of reigning those ideas into one sort of concrete, unified idea and concept. you know, the really good ones, there’s a reason that they’re incredible and they keep doing well. that they empower those around them, but unify the vision of, like you said, there’s so many people collaborating on a film and it all falls under the pyramid of that director being able to make those ideas cohesive.
KG: Yeah, you mentioned the leadership training that you did in that gap year. Do you feel like that has informed your working style or how you relate to other people in a professional environment?
KS: there’s no doubt about it. I think that NOLS trip, the National Outdoor Leadership School trip that I went on, is the single most important thing I’ve done in my entire life because it set the trajectory for everything because on that trip we did such hard days where I came to the realization that I was capable of so much. That I had no idea that I was capable of. not only are you overcoming leadership challenges, but you’re just coming to terms with how much human beings are actually capable of in a group setting. And so I would say it was more the confidence that it gave me to feel like I could chase this career that seemed so far away from suburban Chicago.
But also just to be able to get in front of people, feel confident leading those people and you know back to your question the main thing is just life experience with people in challenging situations and I truly believe that as leaders, get better with age because of that life experience and trying things that don’t work and trying things that do work. So absolutely that experience was was so critical to everything. And I mean, if anyone listening to this podcast is sort of trying to figure out what to do with their life, I feel like there’s nothing better than going on a trip like a NOLS trip and really like pushing yourself and discovering what you’re passionate about so that you can go chase after that thing no matter how sort of insane it sounds at the time.
KG: Yeah, that’s cool. That’s really cool. As you let me kind of go back to some filmmaking questions around like, obviously, I mean, you mentioned kind of older films in the 50s, 60s and 70s. There was one venue for showcasing those films. Now we’re working in an environment that has streaming, people are watching films on their phones, people are watching them in IMAX like there’s such a wide range of experiences of how somebody can experience a film. What do you, like does that factor into how you’re creating the film at all or is that something that is just, it shakes out how it shakes out based on the course of the film?
KS: I mean, it’s a very valid point and it comes up constantly. And in this film, when I originally came on, the Street Fighter movie that I’m doing, I said, this is an IMAX movie for sure. Like we really, it would do so well in that environment and I’m a huge supporter. I did, we shot Terminator for IMAX and so I have a little bit of experience but on this movie we really went all out and I think cinemas are the best place to experience a film because the sound is incredible, the picture is incredible. There’s something about the image being bounced off of something and shot back onto you that I feel like it’s like reading a book on paper as opposed to reading something on an iPad. It imprints onto your brain in a way that you remember it and it stays. And that’s something that, I don’t know if science has explained, but there’s definitely something to be said for that. And many people, I think, agree with that concept. So, you know, I love cinemas, clearly, but yes, we’re making movies for all kinds of things and making commercials as well which is another thing I do and so we’re kind of always talking about like people are going to see this on their phones we should make this thing bigger we should use lighting that really draws your eye to that thing so people watching it know what it is and when you know it’s unfortunate that the theater is a less visited place and that many people feel like they have a great TV at home and a great sound system and you can get up and go to the bathroom and pause and so I think most people are watching most things at home. But I really believe in the idea that now there are event films and that people go to the theater to see a film as more of an event. And I think as kind of sad as that makes me, I’m also, I understand the realities of that.
Something that we’re doing on this film is trying to make a really big film for IMAX that is an event piece so that people are going to want to go to the theater and talk about it because of the camera work, because of the lighting, because of the sound. And so, you know, that’s just the way things are now. So if you want to make a really big event film, like you better excel at those elements, you know? You got to make the little jizz beautiful. You’ve got the music. Everything has to really tie together in a beautiful cohesive way that doesn’t feel like you’re watching a TV show. You know, that feels like there’s something special, something different happening. And so we’re constantly calibrating for that and trying to do the best job we can at creating for that. But I know most people will probably see this film on at home or maybe on a device and I would say I am not shooting this movie for someone to watch it on an iPhone.
KG: Yeah, that makes sense.
KS: And I’m not thinking about that at all, honestly. And I hope most people see this movie on the cinema or at home on an amazing TV with a great streaming connection and good sound at home. But for this project, I’m not making it for a phone. But sometimes when I’m shooting commercials, we will talk about, this has got to pop on the phone.
So we definitely are always making adjustments for various formats. you know, long live cinema, long live shooting on film, you know, and just those. And I love reading books on paper. And I just think there’s something to be said about those things that I think, you know, get thrown into the same batch of sort of human experience.
KG: Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s an idea of art and there’s an idea of craft and they’re a little bit different in my mind, but like your craft of filmmaking, your craft of shooting a movie and then the art, like there is an overlap there or the Venn diagrams I think overlap sometimes a ton, sometimes not as much, but like it seems like you really honed your craft. Over the years really learning the lighting, learning the photography skills. And then when you think about it artistically, is that the preparation, the collaboration that you just talked about? Is that like an artistic pursuit in your mind or is there other ways that you might feel like there’s an artistic expression in the work that you do?
KS: I have two thoughts about this. One is that craft I would liken to tools, right? So craft is like right now I can hear a construction department building flats over there and cutting wood and sure those guys know how to put a perfect right angle, skin a piece of drywall. They know how to do that and that is craft because it’s repetition of the same thing over and over again. And in that regard here, yes, there is craft in terms of lighting where I know that if I put the camera on a certain side and light in a certain way from the other side, like I’m going to get pleasing images. And so.
I think craft is the experience of doing things repeatedly over and over again. And so yes, it’s critical. And I think that it takes experience to become a craftsman. You know, it’s that like 10,000 hours concept. But. And this is a really interesting concept is I went to film school.
A lot of the collaborators that I respect the most went to art school. And I feel like there’s a very different mentality. And as someone who went to film school, which I suppose you could call a craft school, you know, or a trade school sort of, because you’re learning how to do a certain set of jobs well. And I think I’ve had to train a lot of that film school mentality of like, this is what beautiful lighting looks like. These are the rules of cinema. Follow the 180 degree rule of like visual continuity. You know, frame in a certain way for this type of emotion. Frame in this type of way for another type of emotion. And I think it’s like, you’re gathering all these elements and knowing how humans respond to certain things like light color. know, if I under light myself with red light and I use a zoom lens that pushing it on me, like we all know what that’s going to do emotionally. And then if I use a beauty light from a window, that creates another set of emotion. So those are all crafts, but what I’m getting at on this sort of art school, film school tangent is I feel like I’ve had to unlearn convention and I’m constantly reminding myself to strip away the rules and expectations of the way that we should do things or I was taught to do things and now having this toolbox of sort of craft to work from but how can I throw everything I know away and reinvent new ways to do things where it’s almost like a child painting a beautiful Jackson Pollock type finger painting, could be like the most beautiful thing you’ve ever seen and you don’t know why. And so I think it’s like the real trick for me is to have the 10,000 hours of experience to have all the time in to understand the craft, but to really consciously try to throw it away and start new so things don’t become tired and they don’t become sort of repetitive in process. So hopefully that kind of answers your question about that concept of craft versus art.
KG: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I’m curious if you have any kind of rituals or processes that you go about trying to discard those rules and that rigidity that you might have taken from film school or I mean any sort of training like is there a process that you use?
KS: I mean, I definitely try to remind myself when I’m in those conversations to sort of throw away convention, close my eyes and think about it. And it’s tricky because your immediate response is, know how to solve this problem because I’ve done it successfully in this way before or I’ve seen this work where I saw that film and they did a really good job of communicating that emotion in that type of way or sort of tricking the audience and then pulling it back. I also meditate and I think there’s something about meditating where it makes you sort of get under the hood and say like, I’m having this type of thought process. I’m, anger’s coming or I’m on autopilot right now. And it just so, so I think that helps just in terms of me understanding like, all right, you’re an autopilot.
Maybe you’ve been working for 12 hours and you want to go home, but you need to slow down. Or you need to close your eyes and when everyone’s like 10 people are looking at me and there’s like hundreds of thousands of dollars on the clock, which is kind of another part of my job is like I have to execute these like, you know, it can be like high, high pressure days with a lot of like money on the line. It’s like you need to just slow down, close your eyes and just, you know, it’s okay to tell everyone, I just need a minute and go like walk a lap around the set and then come back and be like, okay, here’s what we’re going to do.
And so, listen, am I always good at it? No. Is it something I’m constantly working on? Yes. It’s part of my inner dialogue every single day. It’s like how to not be an autopilot and just use craft and how to, you know, think of like interesting new ways of doing things.
KG: the guest gets to ask a question. So I’ve been asking you questions for 39 minutes now. So if you would have a question to ask me, our listeners, Pedro Pascal, what have you, he’s the patron saint of this show, so.
KS: He is… Amazing.
KG: Well, I have appointed him such. He’s the white whale guest for me. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. I love that. He seems like a very special human. I’ve not met him, but I’ve heard really good things about him.
Huh, that’s such an interesting concept, flipping it, I love that.
I think my question for everybody would be, are you passionate about what you are doing every day? And are you chasing that thing you’re passionate about? And are you reinventing yourself and constantly in a, trying to be better?
You know, I guess I’m just asking it because it’s just something that as someone who’s getting older, it’s like, how can I evolve? You know? And what does evolution look like and how do I stay inspired on a day-to-day basis so I can continue to evolve as, you know, everything, a friend, a father, a human, a husband, an artist. All those things.
KG: That’s awesome. I love that question. I think it’s definitely like all of those things I aspire to, you know, like it’s one of those things where it’s like, yes, I want to, I want to do that. And I want to pursue that. It’s one of those things that is not an everyday situation, I think that that’s great. Great food for thought and great challenge for folks. So thanks for offering that question. Thanks for coming on.
KS: Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
KG: I appreciate your time and I hope you enjoy your time, the rest of your time in Australia.
KS: That sounds great. Yeah. Thank you so much. And, it’s been fun
KG: All I want to thank Ken for coming on. Great conversation to talk with him about his experience and filmmaking and the collaborative process. What a great, great conversation. So thank you, Ken, again, for coming on, making time for us today. please like, subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts, any of those that you utilize.
Please jump in and do that. Also visit the website. So many questions dot show is the website name. So you can always find the latest there and also would love it if you have any questions, guest suggestions or anything like that to shoot an email to so many questions show at Gmail dot com. And I will respond to every single one of those
I appreciate everybody listening again. Please share with somebody who you think would like this or might find it interesting.
Again. Like, share, subscribe, like, share, subscribe, like, share, subscribe, all of those things. Thank you again for coming along on this journey and I appreciate every single listener of this show. Thank you so much. Take care.
[Note: This has been edited for clarity]