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Kendall Guillemette (KG): Hello, welcome to So Many Questions. I’m Kendall. My pronouns are he, him. Today on the show, we have marketing executive and CMO of Contentful, Elizabeth Maxson.
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All right, today on the show we have Elizabeth Maxson, affectionately known as EMax. Thank you for joining us today.
Elizabeth Maxson (EM): Thanks for having me on.
KG: Absolutely, my pleasure. So I want to start with just a little question about the headspace that you’re in today. What’s your headspace like today?
EM: A little chaotic. I started todayoff great. I go to the gym at 5.30 in the morning, but I meet my friend Steve usually between like 5:00 and 5:10. And I have this amazing community of friends at the YMCA that if I can start my day with them in a very fun, positive head space that stays with me throughout the day. Then I had a more playful approach to get my kids out of the house this morning that tends to be quite the chore. And so I try to make it more fun for them to get them excited and out of bed and get going. And that carried me through, I would say, through about lunch. yeah.
KG: What was the creative approach today? What did that look like today?
EM: Today that looks like a lot of weird singing with my kids getting dressed is super frustrating because my husband wants them to dress themselves and they want mom to dress them. And if I’m gonna dress them, dress them quick. And so it was like arms up and like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. That was like, okay, your shirt’s off. Okay, now it’s like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, your shirt back on.
So it was a lot of like dancing and singing and I was making up goofy songs about getting dressed to get them to do the things I needed them to get out of the house. ⁓
KG: Excellent. Excellent. You said that carried you to about noon, midday. That’s great.
EM: It carried me to about midday, hit a little bit of a post lunch slump. And then I got super anxious because I have this big event tomorrow So I was a little stressed out, but now here I am. I’m to let that go. You know, we’re going to get back into that playful positive headspace.
KG: That’s right, excellent. Let’s dig in a little bit here. Can you share two or three experiences in your life that changed the trajectory of your life in a particular way or a specific way?
EM: These are, wow, this is a good question. So I have moved across the country multiple times, and I feel like those each were for very purposeful milestones, moments, and opportunities, and probably more risk-taking. So the first came when I was graduating college, and the program that I was in was called commercial recreation. I graduated with this degree. I know people like, what is this degree? It’s basically anything leisure related to make a profit. And most students went to work in the golf industry or at Disney World. I mean, it was just kind of like this wide range of opportunity, but it was a five year program and it required a year long internship. And you could do this internship in a professional job setting, which is what I always wanted to do.
KG: Okay.
EM: Or you could have done it along the way. Like do like mini internship in the summer, log those hours, do another one the next summer, what have you. But I was really focusing on getting out of Michigan where I grew up. I was desperate to move to California. I had never been to California, but I just saw it as this shining state I needed to be in. And I could not find an internship to save my life. And it was super frustrating and depressing.
I was at the time in college where I’ve worked at multiple restaurants and it was my last night at this one bar that I worked at for a very long time. And there is this regular that was there and he was on our university’s board of directors. And I worked the day shift and to go back to the restaurant to hang out is my last working night. And I was just kind of in a grumpy mood and he was like, what is going on? And I’m like, I’m moving home. Like I’m moving home into my parents’ house.
This is the most embarrassing thing to do right now. It’s like, I can’t find an internship, nothing that I want to do. I was very passionate about golf. I really wanted to get in the golf industry. I couldn’t find anything. Nothing was working out for me. His wife graduated from the same program as me many years ago. And he said, I’ll create an internship for you. And I’m like,
KG: Yeah, wow.
EM: Okay, sure Ed, yeah, like I’ll believe that, you know, when that happens. He’s like, I’ll create the internship, we’ll move you out to California, my wife will be your mentor, we’ll get you graduated. And I’m like, again, thinking like, sure, okay, this is just, you know, pie in the sky type idea. And sure enough, he made it happen. And within two weeks, maybe three weeks, I moved to California to start this internship. So that was someone that took a huge bet on me.
Him and his family were more than mentors. They were family. They really took me in as he had two daughters. he has since passed, unfortunately, but he had two daughters that were, I was kind of in between them in age and, his wife Patty, they’re both like the nicest humans you could ever meet in your life. They helped me move out to California. They gave me this awesome opportunity. And that was my first job. So that was probably the first pivotal move.
Another one and maybe a different negative turn positive is I was then at some point was in the golf industry and I moved for another job to Atlanta, Georgia. So was in Atlanta, Georgia and I was getting a lot of attention because golf is a very male dominated sport, as you know.
KG: Mm-hmm.
EM: And same at the association level. And so I worked in these different associations. And the way you can think about it is the United States Golf Association (USGA) is like governing body of all associations and members belong to their state or local club. Their club belongs to their state association. And then that association is governed by the USGA. And so I was in this loop of these associations and had made some really great contacts, but was getting a lot of attention because I was young and female and was doing some really cool things. And I ended up moving to Atlanta and working at a junior association and just had a very poor experience with ⁓ the person managing me who happened to be my same age, grew up in the industry, was very well known for from his youth into this role of this executive director.
And I grew up in a very, both my parents were educators and very much like you have a job, you keep that job. know, like my dad had the same job for 35 years at the same high school. This was like, you don’t leave a company until, you know, like many years down the road. And I wanted to leave immediately. And he made me stay for six months. He’s like, you can’t leave until six months. And I was just dealing with a lot of this like negative energy I was being mistreated and harassed in a very negative way. Had no female mentors at the time to guide me. I only worked with all men, which was weird. And anyways, on like six months and a day, I ended up walking out of this job and had, you know, I was living in Atlanta. I’d only been there for six months. I had no friends, no money.
No health insurance. That was like my dad’s biggest thing. Like you need health insurance. You gotta go get a job. And I got a job on Craigslist and I joined, was technically employee one of this startup. IT Used to be called BMT Promotions and Talent where I met this founder, name’s Matt B. Davis. And he had a staffing company where he would hire booth babes for different events like NASCAR.
Hire bunch of hot chicks to pass out cans of Monster at NASCAR events, basically what he hired for. But he had gotten a client, which was Charles Schwab, to staff their main conference for the year, which is a different caliber of staffing. And he hired me to help build up that part of his business.
Again, another person that just took a chance on me, but I also took a chance on him because that was a very weird time in my life. But it was a huge shape my career because it introduced me to George P. Johnson, which is a company that I worked for many years, which led me to Salesforce, which led me to where I’m at today. So was very timely.
A third one, I don’t know, this is really hard. Honestly, it was probably then my transition to San Francisco. Similarly, I kind of peeked out doing some work with that company and started freelancing with this experience agency, working on really cool clients, both in tech and in automotive. And they offered me an opportunity to work on Salesforce full time and moved me out to San Francisco.
Another really cool part about that, another mentor of mine, at the time our office was based in south of San Francisco and the guy that was helping get me on board was like, listen, you’re, not, you’re not going to live there. Like you need to live in the city. You’re young, you’re single. You need to have a proper San Francisco life, and he helped me negotiate being able to work and create a downtown office, for the first time in San Francisco.
And I was so grateful also for that mentorship and coach to help me be like, I did have to go down to San Mateo a couple of times a week, but enough that I could actually have a really cool life in San Francisco. So would say those are probably my three kind of big pivotal moves in my life.
KG: that makes a lot of sense. I think that like looking at those transitions of location, you also talked a little bit about being a woman in the workforce and negative experiences and things like that. But you’re the first woman that we’ve had on the show, which is exciting for me. And I’m happy because I know you’re super active in advocating for women, advocating for women in the workplace. Can you maybe explain a little bit more where that came from or how it came to be?
EM: Yeah, I mean, I would say in addition to women, I really advocate for mothers. That is my biggest thing. This started when I was pregnant with my first daughter. And at the time there wasn’t a lot of women my age pregnant in the current work environment that I was in. And so I started a small group of moms, all new moms. We all had babies within, you know, a month of each other. None of us, we kind of knew each other. We all worked in marketing, but not enough to really know each other. And I started a monthly lunch. I was like, Hey, let’s just get together once a month. We’ll grab lunch and we can talk about whatever we’re going through. It can be work related, can be person related. it, do you have issues with breastfeeding? Is your child not gaining weight? What color is their poop today? Let’s Google that together. I mean, they’re first time parents will appreciate that. But, you know, there’s so much that you don’t know as a first time parent. And I wanted to have this forum where we could have a safe space to ask questions and lean on each other. And it’s just started with, you know, a couple of us, maybe like three or four and, you know, month by month it grew and grew. And at that time it was still only maybe 15 people at the most came in person.
Well, COVID happened and you know, we obviously the transition to being virtual. And so I started doing it virtual and then no one showed up. And I used to, my one friend Lauren would always show up and at that time I was like, well, this is just ends up being Lauren and I catching up. But at the time or around the time Salesforce acquired Slack and we became big Slack users.
And my friend Mai said, hey, listen, why don’t you just start a Slack group and see what happens there? I was like, okay, I’ll do that. So I started a Slack group and I paid a lot of attention to moderating. It was everything from what resources do we offer from our company to, hey, was just Halloween, everyone post pictures of your kids’ costumes to just like anything that people wanted to ask. And what really ended up evolving is this whole other safe forum where really hard questions were asked, really hard questions were answered, and it became this really beautiful community. I actually had one of my friends who still works there send me a clip of what the group looks like today. And I think there’s almost a thousand women.
KG: Wow.
EM: It says created by Elizabeth Maxson and the date that I created. So they still capture that in like Slack history somehow. But ⁓ I thought that was pretty cool. now that still exists. It lives on and honestly, and we still are there for each other in multiple different ways.
Here at my current company, I now am a sponsor of we call it Caregivers. So it’s not just for moms. It’s not just for parents. It’s for all caregiving, which I also think is really important right now.
KG: That’s amazing. Yeah.
EM: I think a lot of folks like you and I can resonate in our age group are now thinking about how they’re taking care of their parents or grandparents and what does that look like. So now really sponsoring the effort of our all caregiving, regardless of the age of the human, but I have a sweet spot for supporting mothers.
KG: That’s so cool that it grew so much and so like, and that there’s still like that you created something that is still going on and is still thriving. That’s really cool.
There’s something that’s untapped there and your example of creating this group for mothers. Is there something that you think of when you think about sharing with your peers or our listeners or anything like that to advocate for underrepresented voices, whether it’s mothers or LGBTQ community or whatever it is, like how, how would you say to help advocate for those voices, whether it’s in the workplace or just in life.
EM: I think for those that feel underrepresented, I think there’s an opportunity to share more and educate others. There’s a lot of miseducation or just lack of knowledge of what it means to be underrepresented in different ways. And then on the opposite side, for those to be advocates, I think it’s really important to listen and ask questions. I recently have participated in a couple different events recently, one was dedicated to only women leaders, which was amazing. That was like a completely different community, way more vulnerable, very quickly, way more solving problems together, lifting each other up. And the second one had men in it as well. Completely different dynamic. Took a little bit longer to maybe get to that being vulnerable, but also I don’t think in, from my perspective, especially women can succeed without male advocates and male support. So that’s important to me as well. And from a parent aspect, I think often I have found, you know, I talk about this all the time, honestly, with other female leaders on how much do you share about your private life where your family becomes almost like excuses to not doing something to show up for work. You know, I’m very work driven. It’s a big part of my identity.
I often feel like I have to overshare if I can’t make something or if I need to be late and it’s because I’m dropping off my kids or I’m taking them to Jitsu or I’m doing an activity or this week they didn’t have school multiple days. It’s been a juggle back and forth between my husband and I. How much do I share that and not share that? And I’m way more of an open person. I’d rather people truly understand my life dynamics than not. I mean, you’ve seen that a ton.
Because I feel the more that people can really recognize you on a human level and understand you more deeply, the more that they will be compassionate and more open to ask those questions and listen. But if you are very closed off and keep all of that to yourself, how can you expect others to help or advocate for you if they don’t understand it? So I think that would be my advice is being more open to educate others. And if you’re being educated, ask more questions and listen more deeply.
KG: Yeah, I’m gonna take a little minute here to just gas you up a little bit, EMax. When I worked with EMax and on our team, that was the thing that stood out for me every time that I interacted with you was your humanity. And I know that I’ve said that to you a million times, but I think that that’s really special is coming and showing up in a very human way and allowing yourself to be seen and sharing that with other people because it does change the dynamic of the relationship. And again, that can be personally, like if you’re in a friend group and you have somebody who is sharing and willing to show up in a vulnerable way, that changes the dynamic in a similar way in a professional environment. I think that that really changes the dynamic and, and allows people to show up as themselves because the leadership is doing that. So I experienced that with you. I’m super grateful for it. And it’s something that I think is really special in the workplace is to be able to have people show up as their authentic selves and be vulnerable and transparent. And so one, thank you. And also I just want to encourage anybody who’s listening now to do that, whether you’re a leader or not, that’s a way to lead wherever you are in your friend group and your professional organization. So, thank you for that. EMax I really appreciate your presence in that.
EM: You’re gonna make me cry. Thank you.
KG: I have done that before.
EM: I know, you’ve seen me cry.
KG: I think one thing kind of on top of that, the last on top of the last question is like for people who have less experience, who aren’t executives, who aren’t necessarily leaders in their organization. Is there anything that you’d want to pass along to them, whether it’s women in tech, whether it’s mothers in tech or mothers anywhere that, so they could know that earlier in their careers.
EM: I think regardless of where you’re at in your career and often I get this question too for people that are looking to do something different and they get too stuck in past titles or past roles. And I often challenge them to think about what are the skills that they bring to the table, think is really important, versus, I’ve helped friends transition to different industries is really difficult. And so to be able to do that, how do you just take a step back and really look at what are the core skills that you have mastered?
I also really appreciate when people, know, maybe growth mindset is overused, but just being learners again, there’s so much to learn right now and you know, with AI and just in life in general. I think it’s important to really, that’s another place to be vulnerable. Like there’s so much going on you don’t know. You feel like you’re behind and you got to keep up, keep up, you know, there’s a lot to learn. So how do you make space to do that? But also not be afraid or ashamed when you don’t know something. I think it’s important to be honest. And then for mothers, I just think there are so many skills that being any parent that you carry that are critical to the workplace, whether it’s having more empathy, it’s being more curious, it’s finding ways to be more playful sometimes or not.
I don’t think we give enough credit to how much we juggle or balance or are constantly transitioning the operations, the logistics of your household. ⁓ one of the stats that I love is that love and hate at the same time, but love that I know the stat in that mothers carry an extra 30 hours a week of a mental load, just managing their household. And it’s.
KG: Yeah.
EM: That’s real and that’s legit on top of whatever job you have, whether you’re executive or an IC, it doesn’t matter. And I think often we don’t give ourselves enough grace and patience when we are stressed out and there’s a lot of things that we are juggling. And in the end, we’re all human. You probably have heard me say this a ton, but like the work will always be there tomorrow waiting for you.
KG: Yeah, for better or worse.
EM: You’re in technology, we’re not saving lives here. I know, some might, some might,, I don’t know, but you know, standard SaaS, you know, not really saving lives. And so I think it’s just a good reminder of what’s really important in the end for your own mental health and happiness. And, I do get that from work. I mean, I’m having so much fun.
And I get a lot of energy from that, but I get a different type of energy. My cup’s filled up in a different way, you know, with my family and how to engage there. And it’s really important for me to set those boundaries and be able to live in both worlds. ⁓ You know this, I don’t believe in work-life balance. I don’t think they will ever be equal. I believe in what I call harmony. That is something I talk about, you know, for many, many, many years now. And I think that’s important to just find what’s your harmony in everything because I don’t believe they’re ever equal or you’ll ever find that balance if you’re trying to search for it.
KG: Yeah, that’s on my list of questions for sure to touch on. Can you talk a little bit about that and why you believe that there is no such thing as work-life balance? That’s such a buzzword. It’s such a thing that, we’ve got to approach this and do this. Tell me what you’re thinking is about this harmony as opposed to balance.
EM: Yeah, I think it stems from look at how your day is spent I mean the majority of my day is actually spent with the people that I work with right not my family. They become a family in a way right or hopefully if that’s an environment a culture that you thrive for, but I feel like I have many teammates of mine that are more, you know like family in my work family in my you personal family and I think when you strive for balance you’re striving for maybe something that is not quite attainable because you don’t actually have equal hours to give to both effort in the same way. So how can you find harmony in that you are investing the time that you do have in your personal life? One, you know, to yourself, then to your family, then to your work and to your team. I feel like if you don’t show up for yourself first, then how are you expected to show up for anybody else?
And I think that’s the other thing is we don’t give ourselves enough space for our own mental health or physical health, spiritual health. I think that’s really important to do. And that’s all part of finding that harmony. It’s finding what’s going to work for you to find that peace and all those things. And they’re never all going to be amazing at the same time. An example we use in my team is not all of your plates are made of glass. So what plates are rubber that you can drop and are going to bounce back up and how can you think about that and all aspects of your life? And that is what I feel like harmony is in some way. It’s like things spinning in the air. Some are glass that are critical in both parts of your life. Some are rubber, you know, some are plastic. Maybe they don’t bounce back up, but they, you know, have kind of annoying fall. And those things constantly change. And I think the more you can focus on what’s in your control.
It really helps release what is not maybe more mentally and probably emotionally and spiritually than anything to really help achieve that harmony along the way.
KG: Yeah. I think that like when you were just talking about that, that made me think of, something that I learned or have been learning, I guess, probably I’m still learning it is, showing up isn’t at a hundred percent all the time. Like nobody can actually do that. And so I think it was, Liz Fosslien, with Adam Grant, maybe who did like a little illustration where it was like, what people think of as showing up and it’s like five cups all the way full. And then it’s like, what actually is showing up? And it’s like, this one’s totally full and then it’s half full. then, and so it’s just like, yeah, you’re, human beings are not machines. Like they do not operate on the assembly line where it’s like you get X units a day, whatever.
EM: No, it’s impossible.
KG: And so I think that learning that, which is, think, similar to or maybe tangentially related to what you were just talking about with all the plates in the air, like there are there is a priority or a prioritization of those things that. You’re not going to show up 100% for all of those things, you can’t, but learning what are the glass plates in your example, I think is really important. You mentioned a little bit about self-care, taking care of yourself, making sure that you’re able to show up for all of the other things in your life. What are some of the things that you do on a regular basis that help you do that?
EM: So first, I am a total morning person. I get up very early between 4.30 and 5. I go to my local YMCA. Like I said, I start my day off with my buddy Steve, whether we’re swimming Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or catching up in the weight room on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And I am at my best when I do that. Days that I try to sleep in or not as motivated are definitely not my best day. So I’m at my best when I can do that. It’s really interesting different times of the year too with the seasons and the time change of how morning looks so different. So right now we’re in a period where I leave and it’s pitch black, but I’ve been leaving the gym when the sun is rising, which has been awesome. It’s like a whole other experience. mean, beautiful sunrises in San Francisco that has just even brightened my day in a whole nother light. So that’s actually been, you know, really exciting.
The other thing I do is I’m a huge reader at night and I don’t know how, I’ve never read fantasy in my entire life, but I am just on this fantasy kick right now, primarily because it has nothing to do with my real life. I think I’m just using it as a place to escape. You know, there’s like dragons and witches and you know, all these different characters to follow. I’m like deep in these novels. So I do read every single night. That’s like a big passion of mine. And then honestly, it’s just setting boundaries. I mean, I don’t work in the evening. I don’t work on the weekend unless I like really want to because it’s gonna help me get ahead. But I do feel having some pretty clear boundaries with my work life has really helped me stay more balanced in that way. And to be able to my family time that I need to give attention to. And then other things that I do, I just really love being by water, going to the ocean. I always say heals my soul. My family and I are huge campers. I love camping, as you know. And so we could do a whole podcast just on that, but just being out in nature and being outside just really fills me up.
KG: Yes.
EM: And I need to honestly, as I’m saying, it’s a reminder to do that more. I really love a woman that I work with, Carla. She’s so great about, getting out for lunch to go for a walk. if we eat lunch inside, she’s like, okay, I’m to go for a walk. And she has this like whole path that she does and there are stairs and, know, all different parts of the city. And it’s just like this quick lap. And I’m like, I need to do that more. So it’s a good reminder to because I’m saying it out loud to take care of myself during the day just as much.
KG: Right. Yeah, you mentioned boundaries. And I think that that’s something, I think especially for someone in your current role, you you’re an executive, you’re a leader in your organization and other organizations before that. And I think that there’s a lot of people who the expectation is nights, weekends, all of those kinds of things. So obviously, as a leader in your organization, you set an example there, but for folks who maybe don’t have that same leadership alignment around making space for oneself, how would you counsel folks to draw those boundaries to say, okay, no, I can’t work on the weekend. And, you know, there’s obviously, there could be repercussions there. So what’s a good approach there for folks?
EM: First of all, the only person that can set boundaries for you is you. And if you don’t hold to those standards and those boundaries, then you’re just doing it to yourself. So you have to be 100% accountable. This has nothing to do with anybody else except for yourself. I feel the biggest way to do that is to be transparent. So for example, on my calendar, that people don’t have access to all my meetings, but what they can see is that I have my commuting time to drop off my kids, both at the top of my day and at the end of my day. And that’s just non-negotiable. I don’t have another option. kids’ school start at a certain time. The daycare opens at a certain time. I have to be there at a certain time. And sure, my husband and I trade off for different reasons if there are things that are important. But that’s a non-negotiable. I just can’t make that happen. So that transparency to have that on my calendar, I think, is really important when it comes to evening and weekends, I really do feel like that is, you know, up to the individual to do that. And it’s very easy to break into a pattern of always being available and then feeling like you need to then continue to always be available.
So I think maybe some tips are to find micro moments to reset yourself. For example, we’re heading into holiday season, right? I bet a lot of people are going to take some time off for the holidays, whether it’s a week or two, allow that to be a reset moment for you of like, okay, I don’t mean this as a New Year’s resolution. I just mean it as like, there’s a break in time coming likely. So how do you use that as a reset of, okay, I’m now resetting this boundary and see how you do for a couple months and wait till your next way to have to reset that. And also boundaries can change. And I think again, being transparent about that. My boundaries had to change during the summer, because my kids are not in school during the summer and they had different hours where they’re in camps that are not very friendly for working parents. Both location and time. And the fact that we sign up for them in February still blows my mind. ⁓ you know, and so I’ve had to re-be transparent about new boundaries that need to be set that are very seasonal and, you know, have its own place in time. And I’m a big planner, so I plan ahead for my time away and I think that’s important to do. Also just to give you something positive to look forward to.
KG: I really like what you said about how people can do this to themselves. Like if you’re not actually following through on the boundaries like that’s not somebody else. That’s you like that really resonates with me and is something that I think is. It’s so easy to just fall into and and then also to project onto somebody else because it’s like, I can’t do that because… Well, have you tried it? Like maybe you could, or maybe you could find a way to work with that transparency so you can find that spot. So yeah, I think that that, really resonated with me.
The next thing I wanted to ask you about is, know, you’ve clearly, self-reflect, you kind of learn and listen to yourself, but what part of yourself right now are you learning to listen to more?
EM: I would say something I’m working on right now is speed. I feel a lot of pressure to move really fast, which I think I always have, but I’m trying to find ways to slow down, primarily at work, but also in my personal life, really listening to my body and what is my body telling me to do. ⁓
It’s very easy to push myself. I’ve been traveling a ton lately and I’ve been talking about this with some teammates of, I’ve definitely have over subscribed myself. That’s another boundary setting by the way. I say yes to way too many things. It is great when you can have help with your calendar and people to help you say no, but it’s up to me again to say no to things.
I have another work trip coming up and there’s set meetings that I’m set to participate in. Part of an offsite and things like that, which is a lot of energy. And it’s a lot of time that is spent. And I do have hours at the beginning of that and at the end of that. And I am not booking those because I know again, if I don’t take care of myself, you know, that I can’t show up for the big meaty parts that I’m expected to. So that was a new boundary that I set.
So I think it’s just a reminder of, where can I slow down? Where can I actually say no to things? I tend to be a “yes and…” person in great positive ways where that makes sense. But I do think there’s also times that are healthy to say no. And again, that goes back to setting those boundaries. So yeah, I would say my self-reflection right now is where can I slow down? Where can I know that the work will get done? What really needs to be prioritized?
How can I be listening to my body more? If my body needs a rest, let my body rest, I think is a big eye-opening thing right now, because if not, I will not survive the holidays if I don’t.
KG: Right. One thing that you just said made me think of improvisation. The “yes and…” Obviously that’s an improv technique and kind of mindset, but I think it goes back to what we were talking about with parenting and the skills you get as a parent. I took a couple of improv classes right after we had our second child and I was shocked at how much you can apply improvisation techniques to parenting and, know, just saying yes. And, also like it’s, there’s the listening aspect of it and there’s the, you know, engaging in the back and forth and those kinds of things. And I don’t know what you just said made me think of that for some reason, but, but yeah, I think that.
EM: Well, it’s the reason why I brought it up though is because I just took an improv class recently
KG: Awesome!
EM: It shows up in leadership as well. Like one of the things we talk about is, you know, challenge the idea, not the person, you know, if you’re in like a collaborative environment and yeah, we did a leadership training where we took an improv class together and yes, and was a huge part of it. And it’s been actually really cool because tons of people are adopting it. Like I’ll be in meetings and someone’s, you know, pitching some ideas and it’s like:
Yes, and…
You can tell there’s like sometimes a slight, uncomfortable, but I do appreciate that they actually are embracing, that we learned that. And it’s interesting because I’ve been using it as a way to describe so many things. Just, find it so relevant in leadership and parenting and personal. think if we were all a little bit more, yes. And people, maybe we’d all be a little bit happier.
KG: Yeah. I totally agree. I think for interpersonal relationships, professionally and personal, think it would be so foundational if people could apply more of those types of techniques, because the kind of counterpoint to yes and is like, don’t say no, like there’s not any bad ideas and it’s kind of reshaping things and going through those types of things. yeah, I think that’s super fascinating. I loved my experience with improv. Sounds like that really had an impact on you too. So that’s awesome.
EM: Yeah, it was fun.
KG: You were just talking about some different expectations specifically at work, but how do you protect your sense of self when external expectations come in and get really loud? Obviously you have a lot of that and certainly in your professional life, I’m sure in your personal life too. But when things get loud or expectations get high, how do you protect your sense of self?
EM: I think a big thing I do there is lean on my community. Whether it’s outside sounding boards that have nothing to do with my work or my industry or anything can be super helpful. I also have a really great female sounding board of women that are in similar roles as I am. Because I do feel like oftentimes it’s lonely being an executive and that’s a lot of pressure. And so the more that, again, it goes back to being vulnerable and being able to lean on people, I think is really important. So I do find community to be really critical. But I also think a big part of community is you have to be active in the community. It can’t just be something that you just show up when you need something. Like you really have to foster that in your own way. And I think that’s a common mistake people have is they don’t activate their community in the right way. It’s like any relationship, to be honest. There’s this whole thinking I’m sure you’ve heard of, like you’re the average of the five people you surround yourself with. And I’ve always taken that pretty to heart of both from a place of positive and negative energy. Am I around people that are more negative or more positive?
Am I around people that are way more successful that I can be looking up to and how do they bring me up? First, are there people around me I can help bring up and help coach or learn things from? So I think there’s different aspects of that as well, but I think really leaning on those communities and engaging and fostering that as much as you are looking to get out of a community, I think can be really helpful.
KG: Yeah. I learned that lesson a long time ago now, but I went to a meetup for, I was in WordPress development at the time and I went to a WordPress meetup in Seattle and I was kind of like bummed.
EM: Boo.
KG: Yeah, boo. But I went to a certain CMS’s meetup in Seattle and I was like looking around and I felt really disappointed because like I didn’t know anybody and it was kind of lonely and all of these things. And then I’m standing there in the afternoon and I was like, well, why would I? I haven’t invested in this community. I have not done the things that would help me to actually be able to show up and be like, Hey, Susie, Hey, Bob. Like, so that was like a really big realization for me to be in communities whether it’s a tech meetup kind of community or friend group or family or whatever, like you have to show up and you have to like put in to that to offer your energy into that space to be able to even have access to then draw energy from it in whatever way that means. But yeah, that was a very clear, like distinct point in my life where I was like, got it. That is a lesson learned of community involvement and engagement is you can’t just be a consumer and you know, you have to contribute. So that was something that very much hit me and stays with me quite a bit.
EM: I feel like we’re coming across this theme of everything just starts back with you. You know what I mean? It’s like, you want boundaries? You got to create that. You you want harmony? You need to create it. You want a community? You have to participate. You know, it all comes back to what’s in your control. And there’s a lot more in your control than I feel like people give themselves credit for or even accountability to do.
KG: Yeah. That idea of personal accountability, like I think I’m trying to remember there was… Digging deep in the archive here.
EM: Hahaha.
KG: There was, I’m trying to remember where it was. It was, I don’t remember where it was, but the idea was that the answer is always you. Like the problem is always you. The solution is always you. Like you are, you have more agency than you think you might have in any given situation. And that I think is so empowering.
And also maybe a place for community to assist with because I think I know for me a lot of times it’s been like, okay, but what do I do? Like, how do I do it? And so then being able to have conversations with people who are, you know, in community with you in whatever way that is to be able to be like, well, have you tried that or to like poke at this assumption that you’ve made or those different types of things I think is so valuable and empowering.
When you look back, say 10 years ago, what’s a truth that you’ve come to know that you could not have understood 10 years ago?
EM: Before I’m gonna answer this, I’m gonna share a little story. Are you familiar with a Pecha Kucha? Have we done Pecha Kuchas together?
KG: Nope.
EM: Okay, do you know what a Pecha Kucha is?
KG: I do not.
EM: Okay, so a Pecha Kucha is a style of storytelling where you present 20 slides, 20 seconds per slide. And it’s meant to be on a topic that you’re passionate about or that you’re like, maybe you’re an expert on something. You’re trying to teach someone about something or something really deep, personal, vulnerable, opportunity. And the style also is very limited. This is like limited content, like think a lot of imagery or maybe some big words, but like very simple. And it’s really cool. I’ve done a lot with a bunch of teams. I’m actually going to do with my team in February at our kickoff, but, if people do it really well and get really personal, it’s also like an amazing bonding moment for those that create the content. Many years ago, I presented a Pecha Kucha on why do not believe in a five year plan. And I say that because how many times have you ever been in an interview and someone has said, where do you want to be in five years? I hate that question so much.
KG: Ha ha!
EM: If I look at how much my life has changed in the last five years from experiencing COVID, having as many children that I have now, to the jobs that I’ve had, the places I have visited, no one can plan for that. I think it’s great to have some long-term visionary goals. Sure, I’m not against goal setting, but so back to your original question.
If I think back to 10 years, it’s almost like I can do anything. It’s like I thrive on chaos and problem solving and big meaty problems, both in all aspects of my life. And I feel like if I could tell myself the truth of you can do anything, you can have four kids and be an executive and work in a crazy city. If someone told me that 10 years ago, I’d be like, what are you talking about?
KG: Right.
EM: Like I didn’t even meet my husband 10 years ago. You know what I mean? 10 years ago I was single, you know, and living a completely different, had a completely different career. So I think that’s probably my truth on that. Yeah, I don’t know. Sorry. Like decoupled that one a bit.
KG: Right. No, that’s great. I think, because of the uncertain nature and like we’ve talked about like what’s in your control and it’s like, yeah, a five year plan. It’s not in your control. It’s like, it’s really not. I would love it to be. I think everybody would love it to be, but stuff comes up in your life. Stuff comes up in the world. Stuff comes up in industry, what have you, all of those different things.
You can’t plan five years ahead, no way. And so, yeah, I think I totally, that makes a lot of sense to me. All right, we’ve come to the point of the show, EMax, where you get to ask a question. You get to ask me, our listeners, whoever may decide to come upon this video and audio on the internet. A question can be anything.
EM: Okay, I’m gonna spin off the holidays, because I feel like this speaks to a lot of people. But with holidays coming up, what is one tradition that you grew up with that was your favorite? And what is a tradition you do with your kids that is your favorite?
KG: Got it. For me, I always went to my family, I always went to my grandmother’s house, and grandma and grandpa’s house. And there was always like the big buffet. This was in Michigan as well. I grew up in Michigan too. So there was this like big dining room table full of food and all sorts, like everything. But my favorite was the little cocktail hot dogs that were in like the barbecue sauce in the little chafing dish and I would like sit there and just…
EM: They’re like, pigs in a blanket or just them by themselves.
KG: No, just like kind of like hot dogs, but like cut up into like little cube kind of things. And like this like barbeque sauce. It was so good. It was so good. So that that’s the big one for me from when I was a kid.
And then for me and my kids, we’ve done a bunch of different things, some of which not as much anymore, but like we typically do hikes on Thanksgiving morning. And so we’ll, you know, we’ll go out, do a hike or something like that, and then come back and do the whole Thanksgiving dinner, all of that prep and things like that. So yeah, trying to get outside and experience that. And typically where we’ve lived, Thanksgiving has been a reasonable time to go outside and be outside.
How about you? Is there anything that you, how would you answer that question?
EM: I will say a tradition that I love growing up that I’ve have passed down to my kids is my mom used to buy us an ornament every year to represent something really cool about our year. So whether it was like a sport we played or a place we traveled to or something like something we were interested in. And then she would always put it on the tree on Christmas Eve and we would have to then go find our new ornament. So I have so much fun doing that with my kids and probably having even more fun with it, especially cause they’re so little. You know, like there’s times where I’ve gotten like custom things made with their name to, you know, like one year, my three year old, she’s like obsessed with Super Mario. You know what mean? Like we have like characters on our tree. Our tree is like a hodgepodge of ornaments. Like it’s not, not some theme. It’s like highly colorful, lots of crammed ornaments from mine and my husband’s childhood. And then all these ornaments were gathering for our kids.
The funny thing about it though is that the rule was that she would continue to do this until we were married. And I never forgot it because my sister got married right out of college, which feels like a very Michigan thing to do. It’s like she married her college sweetheart. So that’s when she stopped getting her ornaments. And I remember like I came home one Christmas and I was like in my 20s out of college and she didn’t get me an ornament. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, I’m not married yet. Where’s my ornament? You know? And she was like, you’re too old for this. I’m like, no, I’m not married yet. You said we would do this until I’m married.
KG: Yeah, wait a minute! Did they come back or was it just left to be no more?
EM: Yeah, I think he was left to be no more. But I have all my ornaments now. So then that was the other thing is then my mom like passed them on. So now I have all my childhood ornaments.
KG: That’s awesome. I made ornaments when I was a kid and I made like, I don’t know. I don’t know if it was the time or Michigan or what it was, but like ceramics. But then you would just you would like buy a thing, a ceramic thing, and then you would decorate it or paint it or whatever.
EM: Yeah, like your hand print or something.
KG: Yeah, yeah. But we got a gift like a Christmas present type gift and we got to paint it whatever color we wanted and I painted mine black. It was all black and then there’s like a like a light blue bow or something like that and so that lives on my dad and stepmom’s Christmas tree every year and it’s hilarious because I wear a lot of black and but it’s funny that some kid probably like an eight-year-old me was like yeah black Christmas present that’s what it should be black yeah.
EM: Totally.
KG: I appreciate you coming on. Is there anything you want to plug, shout out, anything like that?
EM: My only shout out is you’re amazing and I love myself some Kendall. So thank you for making some time for me. This was super fun.
KG: Thanks, EMax, I appreciate it.
[Note: This has been edited for clarity]