available on:
k3nd477 (00:00) welcome to so many questions. Today on the show we have Jonny Hoffner, is the
paper antler photography, and Good Lion Golf, which makes golf apparel. great conversation with them today. Really excited to share it with you. Please take a moment, like, subscribe, do all of those types of things. If you have any questions for us, so many questions show at gmail.com, feel free to reach
Enjoy the conversation.
k3nd477 (00:29) you have any questions before we get rolling?
Jonny Hoffner (00:29) congrats.
No, I love that you’re doing it. I appreciate you thinking of me. I looked and saw some of the other episodes you’ve done and you’ve got a great collection of guests and things that you’re covering.
k3nd477 (00:42) well, adding to that today. excited to do so. yeah, initially, you popped into my head when I was, playing 2K PGA, whatever that video game is called. And I was like, man, there should be some good line stuff in the store here for people to put on their little video game avatars. So ⁓ yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (00:44) Hey, I appreciate it.
I don’t disagree. ⁓ Dr. Spaceman might be popping in and out of frame, so…
k3nd477 (01:02) work on that,
Okay, cool.
Jonny Hoffner (01:13) I don’t know if you,
did you ever watch 30 Rock?
k3nd477 (01:17) Briefly, yes, but not like super. I wasn’t super into that, I guess. Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (01:25) Well, his name is Dr. Spichemin after one of the characters, but we call him Spaceman because it’s usually confusing to people. And everybody thinks our kids are and we’re like, that was us.
k3nd477 (01:37) No, Those were the adults. Yeah. Jonny, thanks for coming on the show. ⁓ Maybe give us a little bit of a view of who you are, where you
Jonny Hoffner (01:41) Yep, those are the adults in the room.
k3nd477 (01:53) tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jonny Hoffner (01:55) Yeah, so Kendall, thank you for having me. I’m Jonny Hoffner. I live in Madison. My wife and I have been photographers basically since graduating college. So I was a philosophy major, which is a fast path to unemployment. And so I quickly found myself ⁓ being an understudy in Minneapolis with a couple of photographers there and was able to use that experience to kind of find a path.
and hustle into the wedding photography market in Minneapolis. And so when my wife and I got engaged, gosh, that’s now 2007, we haven’t had, I guess, proper employment since then. So both of us are full-time artists, photographers. And then in the last few years, I guess it goes back five years in inception and then four years since we launched, I’ve been doing golf clothing as well.
k3nd477 (02:47) I did.
So with the philosophy degree and ⁓ history or some work experience in photography, what was the decision to pursue wedding photography specifically?
Jonny Hoffner (03:04) great question. all of my, I’m old enough that all of my work, even in college, because I was a film photography minor, it was all black and white film camera work in the dark room. And after graduating, I naively thought, I’ll just take black and white photos and sell them. And that’s what you do as a photographer. And
quickly found through working with a few galleries there that the gallery route wasn’t exactly for me. That there are a lot of complicated factors that go into being a gallery artist, that that’s what you rely on. So then I started just casting a wide net of what do photography jobs look like? Are there just like photography jobs? So I actually almost accidentally got hired by the Minneapolis Police Department because they had
a photographer position and a guy interviewed me he’s like, so how do you do with like crime scenes? was like, terribly. Like I’ve never seen one and I don’t really want to and I don’t like violence or blood. anyway, I basically then just pivoted and it was through Craigslist I found two photographers that were looking for assistants And one of my professors in college, he gave one of the better bits of advice where he said, find somebody who’s doing
k3nd477 (03:54) Thank you.
I decided ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (04:24) what you want to be doing and study under them. So I thought I’ll just learn under these two guys and see how they do it as a profession. And after studying and working under them for probably as close to six months, I then was able to put together a portfolio. They both just happened to shoot weddings. I didn’t have an intention of weddings being the direction,
k3nd477 (04:47) direction. ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (04:48) but actually really enjoyed the interpersonal dynamic of it.
you have very little control of most everything. And I actually really liked that from a creative standpoint, because you have to adapt and work on the fly. And then it allowed a space for my wife and I to be able to work together. So we’ve been, yeah, we sort of, I don’t want to say fell into it, because I wanted to do something with photography from a young age. I at one point thought being an art therapist
would be the direction.
k3nd477 (05:17) Okay.
Jonny Hoffner (05:19) And then as things happen, kind of slowly walk through each door and then all of a sudden find yourself in a room that you maybe never would have imagined.
k3nd477 (05:28) And your wife, you have been doing it with your the whole time that you’ve been doing wedding photography. Was she also doing work with the people that you were working with, or was it totally separate, or how did that collaboration come together?
Jonny Hoffner (05:44) Yeah, so she studied international relations and when we both graduated, I was working on a ranch in Colorado. She was set to go to Sudan. Both things kind of had their ways in which they fell apart. And I ended up moving in with my brother in Minneapolis. She moved up later with her college roommate and then as I was kind of starting the work with photography, she would come along.
on shoots and she has a natural eye and way with people and sees things in a way that’s different than me and better than me and has her own kind of worldview and perspective with it. So we got engaged and then both quit our jobs. So that was kind of a, I don’t know if it was an alarm to our families, it was in hindsight, imagining my kids doing something like this, but yeah, so we’ve been both of us full time.
k3nd477 (06:13) I’m sure we’ll have to do it again.
Jonny Hoffner (06:38) basically since we got engaged.
k3nd477 (06:40) And then the creative aspects of it, you mentioned the constraints that doing live event photography, specifically weddings, which are very obviously fraught with emotion and intensity and those types of things. What constraints did that introduce into your creative process?
Jonny Hoffner (07:01) Yeah, so we, lot of times the work, the location is a place we haven’t been. So right out of the gate, you have a new setting, a new environment. We have no control over, we have very little control over light, no control over weather. The people like our clients generally are not models and may not even like having their photo taken. And then you have all the other dynamics of perhaps they’re a little stressed, perhaps they’re a little.
nervous or they have some anxiousness about whatever it is. And so that was actually of the things that I then liked is it became much more so about the interpersonal dynamic and relationship. We are having to set them at ease and we might have 10 minutes with them. We might have two hours with them and every client is totally different. that those are some of the constraints and then we apply.
some of our own constraints to ourselves with the equipment we use. we largely are prime fixed focal length. We don’t really, we went like 12 years without bringing a flash or any kind of light to events. Cause was like, whatever’s happening, we’re going to capture it how it is. To try to apply some of those dark room film techniques to digital. Cause we shoot digital, but don’t want to get into the like hyper realistic.
I don’t know, where everything’s
k3nd477 (08:22) Right.
Jonny Hoffner (08:23) like an avatar.
k3nd477 (08:24) And so you’ve been doing that for 17 years, did you say?
Jonny Hoffner (08:29) Yeah. Yeah.
k3nd477 (08:30) So over that time, obviously, when you practice a craft for that long, your skills improve. What is it that you’ve found that you’ve gotten better at? And then what have you found is still super challenging?
Jonny Hoffner (08:46) I would say for the first five to 10 years, I felt physically ill before every wedding. Like I felt the weight and the heft of the importance of the photos. And that is probably self aggrandizing and saying, these photos are gonna rock their world and mean the most of anything to them. And they do carry a lot of significance. And we would see as years went on, all sorts of…
Unforeseen circumstances would occur after a wedding where it’d be like a person would pass away, a person would be ill, different situations would emerge and so those a significance immediately and then in theory they kind of grow in significance as they age. So for a long while I would say one of my weaknesses, it could be a weakness or a strength, who’s…
k3nd477 (09:28) and then you understand what he said. So, I’m to stop while I’m saying this. I’m searching.
Jonny Hoffner (09:40) to say, but was kind of the way in which I felt the responsibility to the point that it would almost make me ill. I now do feel a bit,
k3nd477 (09:42) I’m so much fun myself, on the way to the government, people. I’m having
Jonny Hoffner (09:49) I’ve hopefully shifted a lot of that focus toward client experience and remove some of that pressure from myself. It’s obviously like whether I’m taking a photo of the family or the landscape or even a flower in my mind, every single time I’m like,
k3nd477 (09:50) Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (10:07) this will be the greatest photo ever taken. And it’s not, what else?
And again, that’s not to say it is the greatest photo, but the goal is always to deliver the best thing possible while also delivering the best experience.
k3nd477 (10:22) Yeah, and what have you like because you mentioned art therapy being a potential ⁓ pursuit of yours It almost feels like just in the way you’re talking about it that you kind of do that in a way like they’re like there feels like that interpersonal connection and that Kind of like you said putting them at ease and things like that
Jonny Hoffner (10:42) Yeah.
k3nd477 (10:42) What have you learned about yourself as you have gone through the process of being that kind of, I mean, almost adult in the room at a wedding, but just kind of like the steady, you’re there, you’re the professional, you know what you’re doing. How has that affected you? How have you learned and grown about yourself?
Jonny Hoffner (10:56) Yeah.
That’s a great question, Kendall. You’re good at this. I see why you have a podcast. ⁓ That’s maybe the thing that I learned or have continued to learn because it’s ever a process and an evolution is that we get to set the tone in most of these situations. So they’re reading us as much as we’re reading them. And as a parent now,
k3nd477 (11:05) Thank you.
Haha
Jonny Hoffner (11:31) We have an 11 year old and an eight year old. You see this where you set, you’re the thermostat of the household in a lot of ways. So you have a choice what are you focusing on? What’s your temperament in as much as you’re able to impact and affect that. And so when we’re taking photos, Michelle and I, my wife’s name is Michelle, we one time were able to go to this.
event and we were actually the subjects for a bunch of photographers taking pictures of us. And it was fascinating the different approaches that people would take where they’re like, hey, Jonny and Michelle go stand in the corner natural. It’s like the least natural thing in the world is to be told to go stand in the corner and do that. And then some other people would just be kind of like actively manipulating your face and like physically touching you as like, I don’t want that either. And then as they’re taking photos,
k3nd477 (12:12) I’m how do you get to take a break? I have to get a break. I want that to there.
And then I get paid and I’m like, I don’t think you’re going to get your extra at all. think it’s not going to be I don’t think you’re going get it. So I have to get a then I’m like, think you’re to
Jonny Hoffner (12:21) I don’t like being in front of the camera at all. Like I do not really like my photo being taken. And so having just even small bits of encouragement of like
from us to our client or to our subject of just affirming them, encouraging them, looking for enthusiasm and encouragement is probably the biggest one. And that’s from a truly genuine place of like, I get super excited when things are…
clipping and flowing. And so it’s not this put on performance and hopefully the subject and client feels that as well.
k3nd477 (12:56) So you’ve traveled through this. ⁓
process of building a business. Maybe can you talk a little bit about the less the creative side of things and more like the hey, I gotta try and make a living. have a family like what is that feel like when you’re doing creative things when when you’re trying to also make a living and build a business?
Jonny Hoffner (13:24) stressful. It is different seasons and different years have been stressful and difficult for different reasons. So when COVID hit, all of our work for a year was just wiped out in two weeks because it became illegal to have group gatherings and be inside. That was hard because it’s not like one of us as a neurosurgeon, as a failsafe, where we’re like, well,
what I was going to need brain surgery is like, no, this is, we both keep food on the table and the lights on with photography. Good Lion kind of keeps drinks on the table, but like this all functions because of paper antler, which is our photography name. So yeah, I would say, and we’re kind of, we’re accustomed to making most of our income in about six months.
And then we have a number of months in the year where it could be nothing. And for us, it’s all we’ve known. So I don’t know what it’s like to have a paycheck every two weeks or how normal people get paid or how normal people have insurance or go to the dentist. For the first number of years, we, our dental policy was Groupon, which I do not recommend for anybody. It seems like a good idea, but
k3nd477 (14:30) Yeah. I you have fun.
Jonny Hoffner (14:45) When we go to the dentist, we’re like, oh, $40 cleaning. That’s awesome. And then they’d be like, you have 75 cavities I don’t even have 75 teeth. And then once we later had proper plans in place, they’re like, no, you’re good. So I’d say the stressors shift. Once a home comes into the picture and kids come into the picture, all of that focus sharpens to drop some photography metaphors.
k3nd477 (14:54) Thank
Thank you.
Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (15:14) that
all becomes a bit more of a real deal thing as opposed to, this is a fun way for us to travel and meet new people and do something we enjoy. So yeah, I feel that now we’re like, we know our schedule generally six to 18 months And I truly don’t know like went super sideways, what either of us would do.
k3nd477 (15:22) Thank you.
Okay.
Jonny Hoffner (15:42) And I say that less from a fearful standpoint, though that’s present, but from a genuine gratitude standpoint as well that for the last 18 years, I feel like we’ve both been able to pull a little bit of an adult hack where we are with our family a lot, we’re home a lot, we’ve gotten to travel and meet all sorts of incredible people. And I really love and believe in what we do. So there’s…
k3nd477 (16:01) you
Jonny Hoffner (16:10) The highs way offset the lows, but there are times where most all my friends in Madison are like real adults with real professional jobs and have to wear real clothes and do real things. And on one hand, I’m like, I lasted at a desk job for quite literally, I lasted there for three weeks and I thought I was getting fired.
k3nd477 (16:28) I I’m not quite sure if this is the right time to I’ve had to answer quite a few questions after this. But
I think it’s good idea go ahead and do this. I think it’s great idea to go ahead and do this. I don’t know if you’re not ready.
Jonny Hoffner (16:38) It ended up being a promotion and ended up saying, I’m sorry, I’m quitting. And then for the last couple of days, I sold some artwork out of my cubicle and that was
peace. I’m out. yeah, there is the artistic side, which I would love in theory to just take photos, doing all the admin, the management time on email, editing, those things can also definitely be a grind, but the trade-off is
Far worth it.
k3nd477 (17:07) So you said you mentioned like Six to eighteen months out is that because obviously people are like hey, I’m gonna get married in the year 2032 will you photograph my wedding and is that kind of yeah?
Jonny Hoffner (17:21) Yes. Yeah.
People are, I mean, more power to them for being such good planners, but we had, we had a, we’ve had a couple of people actually write and try to reserve a date. And on the inquiry forum is just their one name. I was like, Oh, tell me about your fiance. They’re like, I’m not in a relationship. They just wanted to secure a date in a future time. it’s like,
That is flattering and I’m sorry, like we’re not signing a contract with you. Like I, I don’t know, that didn’t feel right. So there’s, some people will plan quickly. Like they’ll be like, hey, we’re just gonna do this quick elopement in a couple months, but then other people are way far out. And it changes all the time.
k3nd477 (18:09) Yeah.
think I’ve read that you have it like you limit the amount of work that you take on and kind of is that also a constraint that you’ve built into your business? And maybe talk about why you built that in.
Jonny Hoffner (18:17) Yes.
Yeah, for sustainability, mentally, physically, enjoyment early on, we would take just every wedding that came our way. And I think that was the right approach. I think you have to do that. And in many ways, I would still love to do as many as physically possible. In 2012, we did a year long road trip. So we tried to hit every state.
And we were raising money for a safe home in Honduras. And that year was incredible and it was terribly exhausting. And so from that point, I think we ended up photographing 42 weddings that year and however many states in a few countries. We need to kind of scale this back to a sustainable path so that we can do this and enjoy it year after year for the next 10 years or however long we’re able to. And then now that
k3nd477 (19:12) I’m going to
Jonny Hoffner (19:23) especially with having young children, have soccer tournaments, have basketball tournaments, they’re active. in as much as I love work, it is not the only thing that I enjoy. And so there’s a ⁓ friend
very early on said, like, if your focus is just to maximize income, probably shouldn’t be an artist, probably shouldn’t be a photographer. Like there are other things that you can do. And so you just really need to find what works for you.
And so for better and for worse, would say my career aspirations have always been kind of low. I’m like, I don’t need a whole lot to feel content and happy. And what is an extra X amount going to allow or provide? And we are still at time, I guess, to put, to take a pivot.
k3nd477 (19:58) Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (20:17) is the most valuable thing. And so anything that infringes on that more than necessary, I’m trying to be better about protecting.
k3nd477 (20:25) yeah, well, can imagine. Like I own my own business for a long time as well. So I know that the prospect of. No customers, no clients coming through the door or that that tap drying up is is real and it’s stressful, so I definitely understand that. ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (20:36) Yeah.
You’re not
guaranteed anything. Like anytime somebody writes, I’m like, that’s incredible. That’s such a gift. And then if they book us even more so, but yeah, that angst is real.
k3nd477 (20:47) No.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure, for sure. ⁓ I think that you’ve talked a lot about already just the interpersonal, the relationships that you build with your clients. what’s the best part of that? Like are there do you have any instances or stories where you develop relationships with people that you’ve shot their wedding or anything like that? Like it seems like that’s such a huge part of what you bring to the table.
Maybe talk about that a little bit.
Jonny Hoffner (21:25) Totally, yeah, there are plenty of people and couples that I can think of where they have become friends, where we will routinely grab dinner, our kids have gotten to know their kids later on. Yeah, that side of it, there’s even a couple like mothers of brides who will occasionally just text and check in. One this past year, when we first talked with them about booking, she asked who my favorite photographer is, and I said Sally Mann is up there as one of
my favorites. And right after her daughter got married, she sent me a signed Sally Mann memoir. It was like that, the thoughtfulness of that parents, like she should be understandably thinking about any number of different things before, during, and after a wedding. And the thoughtfulness and consideration on display, was just super flattering and encouraging. So yeah, there are, I generally, genuinely,
feel just a deep gratitude and affection for the people we work with. And I guess it’s not good podcast material because we don’t have the like salacious story of like the big blowout or freak out. It’s like they’re genuinely lovely people and that usually begets further lovely people. like most all of our work comes from word of mouth and referrals. haven’t, I think we did one paid advertisement like
many, many years ago, I finally gave in to the knot because they kept on calling. was like, you guys need to stop calling. was doing a dumb ad and it did nothing. And from that point forward, we’ve just been solely, yeah, word of mouth in referrals.
k3nd477 (23:08) Well, I think that that probably speaks very well of you and Michelle and how you run your business and how you interact with your clients. So ⁓ that’s very cool. ⁓ Let’s maybe move on a little bit. You mentioned ⁓ COVID and that kind of tanking your wedding photography business and that Good Lion Golf was
in a way kind of born out of that or shaped out of that. you tell us like the origin story of Good Lion Golf?
Jonny Hoffner (23:36) Yeah, so like a lot of people in COVID who were cooped up and had time on their hands, that was new found. I have long been a golfer, have always enjoyed golfing. First job was at a golf course when I was 12, would dislodge the range balls early, early in the morning from the fence in the mud, which I now have new gratitude even for my mom driving me at five in the morning. It was a five to 10 shift.
on Saturdays, so bless But yeah, I was golfing with a college roommate outside of Chicago and had surprisingly kind of a decent round going and there’s this hole where he was like, absolutely do not try to go for it. was like, what are we doing? I’m not on tour. I don’t bet. Let’s just let it go. And so I took out a driver, hit it.
well but could not see at all where it went and I turned and looked at him and said Taylor was that safe? And he goes no Jonny it wasn’t safe but it was good. And it was as though the sky parted, inspiration just shot straight down because I’d just finished reading Narnia to the kids and that’s the most well-known famous passage of like is he a safe lion no but he’s good and we
k3nd477 (24:32) I’m trying to think of what that is and there’s a better way to do it. I started with a book Strict Consent, and that’s the most common thing that I’ve in my life.
Jonny Hoffner (24:56) A couple of weeks later, we’re driving down to Savannah to see my wife’s sister. Whole ride to Savannah and just mulling over this concept of something being good, but not safe. Whole drive back, same thing. So that was really the inception and birth of it was to create and introduce concepts, materials, clothing that are for all purposes good and in the context of golf, not safe.
So the first thing we did was a denim hat. So they make you take off jeans. had no problem with that. I don’t want to see people in cut off jeans either golfing. get it. But let’s get a hat out there. Like you can have a cool, clean denim hat. They’re not going to make you take that off. We made a ball marker on a gold necklace and then the jumpsuit that was meant for golfers instead of caddies. Cause caddies don’t ever get enough love. So those were kind of the first.
k3nd477 (25:29) So, with that, I want to keep going. ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (25:54) concepts and then for the last,
gosh, four years, four years, Master’s weekend as when we launched, we’ve just been mulling. It feels like we’re just turning this diamond or whatever stone and just taking it from different perspectives, but it’s all oriented in that Good > Safe concept and mantra.
k3nd477 (26:15) Yeah
And when you try and or when you apply that so it seems like there’s a couple different things coming together one is
a little bit of subversion and kind of counterculture reaction to golf at being stodgy and kind of old and white and all of those things. ⁓ But then there’s also this concept of Good > Safe. Those two things, they’re not like I don’t necessarily see them as opposed to each other, but they don’t necessarily fall super in line.
Jonny Hoffner (26:40) Yeah.
k3nd477 (26:56) I guess now that I’m thinking about it they kind of do but maybe talk about like where your head is at with like the relationship of that like because there is certainly in in reading about it and knowing about it a little bit like a strong drive to be a little bit of a pot stirrer a little bit of you know counter or like subvertive and things like that, but then there’s also this idea of of being good
kind of inclusive and those types of things. I guess maybe that is the counter. Anyway, I’ll you talk.
Jonny Hoffner (27:30) No, you’re good. I, and I feel like I’ve been a bit rambly at points. I can talk about all of these categories ad nauseam. So at any point you can just mute me or like. ⁓
k3nd477 (27:44) No,
there’s a reason that I want you to talk. That’s the whole goal here.
Jonny Hoffner (27:49) Well.
So I guess there’s…
There is an element of subversion, but it is not without intention. It’s not to just be like, we’re gonna like smash a window to smash a window and like play in the shards. It is looking at generally what’s been out there or proposed in the like overall culture of golf is what I will say a uniform that.
One time my wife and I were at a golf course and she quite literally on her own just looked around and said, Jonny, why is everybody dressed the exact same? And I too scanned and it was like white curve print hat, white polo, white belt bucko, khaki shorts. And they all looked like they had just escaped a cults in Cabo. And I was like, what, why? Like this is the most varied game in the world. It’s never the same. The courses are never the same. There’s a huge range of people who
k3nd477 (28:32) it.
Jonny Hoffner (28:51) play, why? Why do we have to fit into this neat, tidy category while also being respectful? Because then I would say on the other hand, the counter movement is kind of then this like loud, brash, fratty, bro culture. I’m like hard pass. Not for me. Don’t like that. Don’t want to be doing keg stands on the course. Like I don’t get that angle or aesthetic of
wear neon orange pants and a banana print shirt? No thank you. So then it’s like what’s a middle path of wearing something that has some meaning, that has some intention, and not to say that they don’t. I’m not meaning to say that they don’t have their own rationale or reasons, but I didn’t necessarily see a place where father of two, somebody who doesn’t golf as much as I would like to, has something that’d be comfortable.
k3nd477 (29:24) Thank you. ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (29:46) that stands for something and isn’t out there in abundance. So I don’t see any desire or interest,
both with photography and with Good Lion. It is the least interesting thing in the world to me to just keep regurgitating the same things over and over. Nobody, there’s too much of most things already. Like, there arguably doesn’t need to be more clothing in the world either. So I, that’s not lost on me, which is why
The only reason that I think it makes sense or why I care about it so much is because it goes beyond the clothing. Like the message transcends clothing. The clothing’s a vessel and like a denim jacket, you’re not going to see on the course and that’s okay. And the reasons for denim jackets not being allowed historically are pretty whack. So like, let’s try to move in a better direction where instead of drilling down into this is the cool club or this is like,
has to look a certain way, it’s expanding it to say, like, let’s make a wider net to have more people feel seen, feel known, not feel overlooked, not feel misunderstood. And having grown up around golf for however long and worked at a number of courses, and I guess present day, I have yet, with maybe a couple exceptions, I’ve yet to walk into a pro shop where I think that, that is what.
k3nd477 (30:52) at work. ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (31:15) I find interesting or compelling or different. And there’s just not a ton of ⁓
departure from this very narrow lane. And if it’s not this narrow lane, it’s like this other category that, again, I just don’t really resonate with. So I guess it’s like, yeah, I could go.
k3nd477 (31:34) How do you Yeah,
like how do you like because obviously there is Like you said intention and there’s
A philosophy or a mission or like an understanding around what you’re trying to do with Good Lion Golf Because it’s it’s so outside because there’s such a narrow band of what is acceptable in golf and You’re not inside of that. How do you go about? Again, this is goes to like a business question of like, okay, I’m
Jonny Hoffner (32:02) Yeah.
It’s not a good model.
I’ve been on.
k3nd477 (32:17) I believe that there are probably more people than one might assume who are interested in these types of things, interested in responsible clothing, interested in designs that are not conventional and are a little off-kilter or whatever, have a different aesthetic. ⁓ How do you find those people?
Like, how have you gone about finding those people?
Jonny Hoffner (32:49) That’s the question. And that has been the most difficult thing.
it’s been interesting because the people who connect with it, people seem to either connect with it and get it or they don’t. And people who connect with it and get it are like in. They are, they’re passionate, they care about it. Just last night, there’s a guy in Miami who’s like, really need that denim jacket and I need it overnighted. I’m like, I’m eating
k3nd477 (33:14) Thank you.
Jonny Hoffner (33:17) Like I’m about to go to golf league, whatever. So I finished dinner, ran to the UPS store and overnighted this denim jacket to Miami so it’d be there today. And that was super cool. I was like, that was a first and he wanted it. And like, thankfully we had one and could go get it to him. But I think once, thus far,
k3nd477 (33:18) Thank
Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (33:44) to back up our approach has purely been interpersonal, relational, organic growth. I’ve had some cold calls. Generally, they don’t go well. I’ve met some people randomly and a relationship or rapport has developed. But a lot of the time, there’s not a grand business plan or strategy. And for better and for worse, we’ve had any number of different people
k3nd477 (33:47) Thank
Jonny Hoffner (34:13) approach us or call and they’re like, Hey, this is the industry standard of ad spending. This is the industry standard of like social media presence. I’m like, Nope. like can’t. Social media is its own can of worms for me. Ad spend is its own can of worms. Like I would rather just kind of slowly organically hustle and grind and grow this. And it’s, guess applying some of our photography business model of like
k3nd477 (34:30) Okay.
Jonny Hoffner (34:44) has a similar slow, sustainable growth and it’s taken a long time and there’s still not this like entire security surrounding it. So I guess like if total security is the goal, you probably wouldn’t go into entrepreneurship, artistry, creative endeavors So again, that’s like perhaps the good but not safe move is to like, this is the path we’re going to take industry standards be damned.
And it’s discouraging plenty of times. Like there’ll be encouragement and discouragement hand in hand, side by side, skipping along throughout the day. like, we’ll see something come through where last week, University of Wisconsin, we made these red denim driver covers for them. Cannot believe that happened. That’s absolutely wild to me. I will ride that for a long time. And then as I like closed that email, I opened up an email saying like,
No, we do not want your driver covers in our pro shop. I’m like, okay, I get it. That’s fair. But like you can quite literally have these things side by side at all times. And so trying to maintain this greater understanding or meaning behind it is then what allows, at least for me to weather a lot of the like, no, cause you hear no, and I don’t get this. And why are you doing this? And do you want to see it grow?
k3nd477 (35:43) Okay. Yeah. ⁓
I’m sure, yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (36:11) all the time and it’s
fine. Like it’s I think generally well intentioned but it’s what it is.
k3nd477 (36:20) Yeah, you mentioned ⁓ the University of Wisconsin. I saw that you also have a relationship with golfer Bobbi Stricker? Is that right? What’s like? What’s that relationship like? What is there? How did that come about? And like where is that something that you want to do more of partnerships with pro golfers? Those types of things.
Jonny Hoffner (36:29) Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah, so a couple, this is now a couple years ago, I just sent her cold email because she’s local. Her family is a powerhouse in Wisconsin. They’re well regarded, people of character, just big fans of who they are. And we don’t have, like my college friend Taylor, he and I were the original Sue with Good Lion.
And as we slowly started to try to expand our reach and grow, felt like it would be very important to have the perspective and input of a woman, of a professional golfer, of somebody who knows what is even functional to wear on a course, which we still have yet to really make that many functional things. But it was just having that kind of, that input felt like it would be important. So the first touch point was just if
k3nd477 (37:27) I’ll have the opportunity to.
I kind of like what our business is doing. So, first,
I want to get this job on the line. And then, I want to get that through the office of the committee. then, want to get that through the committee. And I want that through committee. then, want to committee. And then, And
Jonny Hoffner (37:37) she would hear me out on good lying even being in existence and if we could give her some things. And fast forward a little bit, we had another conversation. was like, hey, we can actually give you some patches or some things to like sew on to what you’re actually wearing or we could actually make some clothing for you. She’s like, I’d rather that. So then we made a collection just for her. Fast forward then to this past summer, we
k3nd477 (38:02) that’s part of the reason why we brought her out.
Jonny Hoffner (38:02) formally brought her on as one of the partners.
⁓ so she is the fourth partner, one of my childhood friends who’s based in Florida right now. He was number three. So yeah, she has been an incredible lift and encouragement and help in terms of. Spurring things on and challenging things and introducing new ideas and giving good
k3nd477 (38:07) She’s a great partner. She’s of our top friends. She’s worked with us time. So, yeah, she has a lot of people that can help these things out. There’s a deep bond between her and me.
Jonny Hoffner (38:27) feedback and pushback on all of it. yeah, it’s been an absolute treat getting to know her and Izzy and the family.
k3nd477 (38:35) and then so moving forward, is that like just trying to get a bead on good lion in terms of.
Do you want something like, hey, we’re sponsoring five tour pros or whatever, like is that a goal or is it more like grassroots or both?
Jonny Hoffner (38:55) I don’t know. think there’s a part of me that thinks it would be… If a tour pro would wear a Par Won’t Save You hat…
Good, great, awesome, done, sold, let’s do it. I don’t know if that will ever happen, but that’d be cool. Denim driver cover feels like the most possible, like let’s just get that on your club in your bag. We don’t have a budget to pay people, so it’d have to be out of like the goodness of Scotty Scheffler’s heart where he’s like, you know what, you guys, that golf shirt that says golf shirt, I need that golf shirt.
k3nd477 (39:24) Yeah.
That’s it.
Jonny Hoffner (39:35) Here you go, Scotty, take as many as you want. can see it going any number of different ways. We, the summer are working with a couple of tournaments where we did make some driver covers for the tournament. there’s a couple of those happening. Bobbi does wear some Good Lion when she’s out playing the UW team is going to have the driver covers and we have a couple of pro shops that carry our stuff. So if we could keep on getting into more.
pro shops and just in front of the right people in a way that is personal and connective, that would be the goal. I’ve also thought in as much as it’d be cool to see a tour pro wearing it, it’d be awesome to see someone in the dunk contest wearing a Good > Safe jersey. I guess the moon shot very high concept lofty view of all of it.
is that the Good > Safe Origin mantra foundation does transcend golf. So it could and very likely apply to really any other sport, any other endeavor, skateboarders to snowboarders to some of you playing pickleball. Like you can tear your Achilles and pickleball that is not safe, but pickleball is good. So there’s all sorts of applications that I guess, you know,
k3nd477 (40:51) Yeah, yeah
Yeah.
⁓
Jonny Hoffner (40:59) Maybe it stays on the course. Maybe golf is the launching point. We’ve systematically even started to, to the keen eye phase out golf on some of the shirts. So it’s now like a focus on good line and then Good > Safe. And that would be more of the direction, which I don’t know if broadening that scope helps or if that dilutes it. Again, we don’t have like.
brand strategy, marketing backgrounds. I read Augustin and Pascal in college and got very confused about life. So there’s, it’s just figuring things out as we go and seeing what works and what doesn’t and trying to have it be something that’s an outflow of something that we care about rather than like, the general public cares about this. Let’s give them what they want. Cause I don’t again think that’s the right flow of.
k3nd477 (41:28) Yeah.
Right.
Jonny Hoffner (41:55) idea or information. It’s like this is something that’s interesting and compelling.
I love it and find it maybe kind of funny or maybe kind of interesting and cool and if you do great and if you don’t, I don’t know. There’s no control over how people respond to things.
k3nd477 (42:13) you talked a little bit about in different interviews or different things like that, kind of how therapy has impacted you, impacted your life, and how you approach things and move through the world. Can you maybe talk a little bit about how that has impacted your life and where you feel like that has brought you?
Jonny Hoffner (42:37) Yeah, Kendall. Also a great question. ⁓ Goodness, yes, have had multiple different seasons in life where that became just very abundantly clear that that was an appropriate step and movement toward growth and healing and whatever else was required. So most, I don’t even know if this was most recently.
I guess there were two recent times. One was during COVID where I, it was a virtual therapist and she basically, I kept on going over and over about how like I’m in this mud pit and I feel like everything around me is muddy and I can’t get out of this mud pit and I don’t want to be in this mud pit. And I just kept on going on and on rambling about the mud pit. She’s like, well, have you ever thought about getting out of the mud pit?
k3nd477 (43:19) I’m going to bring up the question. I think we have to answer this question. This question has been going on and on. And this is the last question. As well, everybody has been
asking the question.
Jonny Hoffner (43:36) And he’s like, no,
I hadn’t thought about that. It’s a very, very simple action step to like, hey, acknowledge it. Cause I think there was a season of life then in particular where I felt like my reality was not necessarily being understood or acknowledged by anybody else. And it was hard. It was a really hard season.
And so I was so desperate for other people to understand how hard it was. as like, look at this mud bath, come in the mud pit. Instead of thinking like, hey, maybe you just need to get out of the mud pit and like find ways to do so that are maybe things that you haven’t tried or done before. Another, so that was very helpful to just try to get out.
k3nd477 (44:10) Right.
Yeah, think you’re double word.
I was just trying to say hello.
Jonny Hoffner (44:31) I know it’s not as simple as then like you just aren’t able to emerge from said mud pit. But another time recently, I had probably a four year break and then a year or so ago went to meet with the guy in person and for the first hour, and I can’t believe he had me back, but I quite literally just cried. Like I went to open my mouth and it was just boom, gone. And I, since being married and now having kids, I’m like…
Weepy weepy weepy man like it doesn’t take a lot. It can be a commercial. It can be anything. Um So that was great like that even that process of releasing whatever that pent-up stress or anger fear whatever was helpful and he had a very good word that I guess it involves some specific things that I don’t need to cover because it’s other people but He was asking me he’s like so do you want to do this thing?
k3nd477 (45:03) I can tell you a lot of the original, and the episode. But, in that context, was a bit better than the original. But, the episode, I could at
Jonny Hoffner (45:31) He’s like, no. He’s like,
k3nd477 (45:31) go back to the same thing.
Jonny Hoffner (45:33) do you want to do that thing? He’s like, absolutely not. He’s like, what do you want for your wife to experience in this? I want her to be able to do X. And he’s like, what do you want for your kids in this situation? I want my kids to be able to do that. And he’s like, let that be your focus. Don’t let it be on your wants. Think about the wants of people you love. And what do you want for them? And that was, again, this almost
k3nd477 (45:33) But ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (46:01) so simple perspective
shift of like, if I am only thinking about my wants, I will be crushed immediately. And they are like, what is a Steinbeck quote of like, man has an appetite that heaven and earth cannot fill. And it’s like, I have all sorts of things that I’d love to see happen. And I need to shift that focus constantly daily, being reminded to like direct that out toward what do I want for them?
What do I want for somebody, for my friends, for my family? So yeah, I could, I have, I could give you a ton of examples of moments where in college, my ⁓ counselor, they a free counseling center. It like, worst case scenario, I go to the counseling center and find something’s off. I need to have it addressed. And that’s a best case.
k3nd477 (46:31) I’m I’m trying to be more careful. So, I’m that I have I’m that you like how it feels. I’m that here. I’m that I’m I’m happy that you’re I’m that you’re you’re I’m happy that you’re here. I’m you’re
I’m happy that you’re you’re I’m I’m you’re here.
Jonny Hoffner (46:56) I get it addressed, worst case, they’re just like, you’re good. You don’t need to come back.
And sure enough, I ended up seeing this counselor for about a year. And he, during one of the sessions was like, you are so existentially anxious and angry. I was like, I am, I am. That actually felt liberating to have a name for it. And there is a whole process in my twenties and into my thirties where I then wanted that to change where I was like, I don’t.
k3nd477 (47:01) I I ⁓
Jonny Hoffner (47:25) want to be existentially anxious or angry. I don’t want to care about
all of these things in the way that I do. And through a whole other process, there is this like, no, that is what allows you to do what you do and care about what you care about and listen to the music you do and read the books that you do and have the opinions and hot takes and whatever. Like you just remove.
For me, that existential angst, anger, anxiety, whatever, you become a flattened shell of a person. So not to lean too heavily into that, but to allow it to also inform and imbue what I do.
k3nd477 (48:05) That’s some wisdom right there, man. That’s awesome. ⁓ Hard earned, I can tell. Hard earned. Yeah. ⁓ OK, well, let’s maybe shift and give you an opportunity. We talked about this a little bit. But I give you an opportunity to ask me, our listeners, a question. And we’ll see where that goes.
Jonny Hoffner (48:22) Yeah.
Well, I’d be curious, Kendall, because you’re a man of many talents, many pursuits. And we go, for the listeners, I think we first crossed paths, it must have been when I was in college.
k3nd477 (48:37) Yeah, it was probably close to 25, 30 years ago. Like it was a while ago. I don’t want to age you there. So sorry.
Jonny Hoffner (48:37) All right.
Yeah, no, that’s fine.
I surely had a buzzed head and was wearing Dickies top to bottom. ⁓ But I’m curious how you have tracked your artistic arc evolution and growth to being in the position where you are now and if you could have anticipated those steps in between.
k3nd477 (48:50) Yes, sounds right.
That’s interesting. ⁓
Whew. My artistic journey, creative journey, has been a little fraught, I would say. ⁓ I studied art in college, painting and printmaking. And then I kind of, after college, did it a little bit. But then I was like, what’s the point? Why am I doing this? This feels very kind of selfish and…
like I’m just creating art. What does that mean? Why do I want to do that? And so I kind of just left it for a while. And I still drew some and things like that. But ⁓ I really, I think, tapped into the creative side of things that I did at work. So I got into ⁓ web development and design and things like that. And so I kind of applied my creativity to that. And that was interesting because
When I tell that to some people, they kind of get a big question mark above their head about how is coding and painting similar? And the way that I think about it, or the way that it has been for me, was it’s kind of trying to solve problems, trying to take something that I want to make, want to do, want to portray, and do it, whether that’s with a paintbrush or whether that’s with lines of code. And so I really tried to tap into that. And that felt. ⁓
Interesting exciting to me for a while, but recently gotten back into drawing painting I’ve been taking this life drawing class. So it’s like there’s there’s like this. It’s definitely like peaks and valleys, I think Thinking about creativity and and again part of why I started this podcast was like, okay the world is falling apart, know around us and you know, the connections between human beings are More fraught and more distant than ever
Why should a person like me start a podcast?
And I kind of came to the conclusion with, you know, to to be creative, to have conversations with people like you and other the other guests that we’ve had. And and that connection and creativity is what it’s all about. kind of like the idea of creativity and those types of things tracks through from long, long ago into various different.
paths and avenues, but I think that the creative spirit has been there all along. Does that answer your question? I don’t know if it does.
Jonny Hoffner (51:40) it totally
does. I just think it’s fascinating that best laid plans just often get erupted and imploded pretty quickly. so what’s the role of them being adaptable and resilient and not giving up? like it would be in the same way that people would be like, hey, there are
k3nd477 (52:04) Yeah.
Jonny Hoffner (52:08) a bajillion clothing brands out there. I had a former client actually tell me he’s like, he had started a successful clothing brand. He’s like, you’re on the shores of the Atlantic yelling into a 50 mile per hour headwind with waves crashing around you and seagulls squawking and you’re yelling and nobody can hear you. Nobody cares what you have to say. I was like, it’s like a very clear picture. I got it. And I’m going to do it anyway. Like, I’m not doing this to be
k3nd477 (52:34) Right, yeah, you’ve got to.
Jonny Hoffner (52:37) Under Armour Like I’m not doing this to be whatever, like this is just something that I care about and want to do. ⁓ So that’s, I love that you have just continued taking steps forward, maybe sometimes sideways, but finding your own path.
k3nd477 (52:55) Yeah. Yeah, like trying to follow that creative impulse, whatever shape that takes, I think. ⁓ In a previous episode when I was talking with Rob Bell, we talked a lot about that, about like the way you make your coffee is a creative act and different things like that. So it’s like there’s creativity and there’s ways to live in a full, vibrant, creative way that it doesn’t necessarily have to involve oil paint or
Photography or whatever it can just be the way that you live. yeah, ⁓ Awesome well Jonny, where can people learn more about? ⁓ Good lion or paper antler. What do you want people to know?
Jonny Hoffner (53:35) Yeah.
Well, Paper Antler is on the worldwide web and it’s on Instagram, though we historically have not been a great follow because we don’t really post a whole lot, though I’m trying to be better about that. And then for Good Lion, it’s Good Lion Golf also on the internet. And then we have an Instagram page for that, that I keep on threatening to pull the plug on, but for the time being it is still there. So that’s…
Those are probably the best ways and we send out emails if you’re more of an email person. Yeah.
k3nd477 (54:10) Awesome
great. Well, I’ll link all of that up in the show notes ⁓ Jonny, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. It’s great to reconnect with you great to hear what you’ve been up to and Wish you all the best and success and fulfillment in your life
Jonny Hoffner (54:27) Thank you so much, you too, and congrats on the podcast and everything you’re doing. All right, peace.
k3nd477 (54:32) Thanks, man.
k3nd477 (54:35) Want to thank Jonny for coming on the show. to chat with him.
interested in the different things that we talked about today and the different things that Jonny’s up to, please check him out at paperantler.com or goodliongolf.com and get more information there. again, thank you watching. Thank you for listening. Please like, subscribe, share with all of the people that you know, every single one of them.
Reach out to them and tell them how much you love so many questions. We would greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much. Take care.